stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Roy Dacke
We have the same problem on Lasso servers at our company -- the email queue goes to sleep.  Sometimes restarting Lasso service wakes the queue and all the emails get sent but sometimes not.   When restarting does not awaken it, we have to flush the entire queue to get email sending again at all.  Sometimes DNS deafness seems to be involved, sometimes not.  More often, Include_URL still works even though Email_Send does not and since Include_URL requires DNS we feel that usually DNS deafness is not involved, although the error we get is that the SMTP host was not reachable.  This causes lost emails for our clients.  Well, eventually the clients got so upset that we had to search for a more robust solution and we found one.  It costs money but similar solutions can be constructed that are free.

We are overriding the Email_Send tag for all sites and servers to send API calls to an email service of our choice via Include_URL.  We went with overriding the existing Email_Send tag so that we would not have   When we have more time later, we will construct our own SMTP API to connect to, obviously in a language other than Lasso.  To avoid plugging, I will not mention which API we went with -- there are plenty to choose from among if you don't have time to build your own.

Before this solution we tried DNS ticklers, periodic scheduled DNS flushes, host file entries for our routinely used hostnames and lastly we tried running smtp and dns services on each Lasso server.  I see that several other have also tried this and maybe it works for some, but it is clear that for us and others it does not.  We still get errors like smtp host 127.0.0.1 or even localhost can't be reached.  It works for a while and then breaks -- and it breaks in about the same amount of time as it did back when we were going with the SMTP server of our colo host.

This email issue has been one of our only major complaints with Lasso over the years.  Yes, we are still on 8.5 and would have upgraded to 8.6 if it were a sure fix for this email problem.  We are migrating our whole organization to a different framework anyway (again, I won't say which one) and Lasso is now our legacy language.  All the Lasso servers were pretty unstable upon my arrival at this company.  They were relying on a system of monitoring and manually restarting.  Out of a dozen server at least one would need restarting each day and during a peak traffic day they would have one guy would on duty just to handle all the Lasso restarts that would inevitably be required, with many of the server requiring several restarts in a day.  I finally wrote a bash script that checks several metrics once per minute and restarts both apache and lasso if various configurable thresholds are exceeded.  Using this script on each Lasso server has made my life a lot more peaceful in the last couple years.  Since then, my only big Lasso problem has been the email queue issue.

Interesting side note, since I instituted the auto Lasso check & refresh scripts, the only servers that we ever get a stuck email queues on are servers that handle SSL traffic.  Indeed we always had way more instability with SSL Lasso servers vs non-SSL Lasso servers.


-Roy

On Mar 13, 2013, at 10:23 PM, Erik Vandermey - WebCentrix, Inc. wrote:

> OK, tried setting up DNS and email on same server as Lasso (running 10.8.2 server). Ran into the same problem. As soon as DNS lookups fail, all email stops working (either email_send or email_smtp).
>
> Configured DNS to use 127.0.0.1 and email to use 127.0.0.1. Setup local users to authenticate, relay all email thru our regular mail server (also on same IP subnet). Works for a little while than BAM no more DNS lookups (took less than a 1/2 hour for DNS to quit working).
>
> I'm almost at a point where I'm going to stuff email messages into a MySQL table and have PHP pull them out and send them via a shell script.
>
> How sad is that.
>
>
> On Mar 13, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Marc Pope <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> FYI I have a mail server on the same server and I use localhost as my nail server in lasso.. And not send direct with lasso, I have a lot better success that way.
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> On Mar 13, 2013, at 7:12 PM, "Erik Vandermey - WebCentrix, Inc." <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Already sending/relaying to a local email server also behind the firewall. Configured the SMTP_Host option with an IP address instead of a domain name. Tried various external DNS servers (e.g. Google DNS - 8.8.8.8) and local DNS server behind the firewall. When DNS lookups fail, email doesn't send.
>>>
>>> I don't know if there is a way to tell Email_Send or Email_SMTP to ignore a DNS lookup when an IP address is used for the host. They may not be programmed that way.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> ---
>>> Erik Van-der-Mey • [hidden email] • (AIM/iChat: [hidden email])
>>> WebCentrix, Inc. • http://webcentrix.net • Web Hosting/Co-Location/Dedicated Servers  
>>> Certified Lasso Developer (CLD) • Kerio Connect/Control/Operator Reseller
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 13, 2013, at 5:59 PM, Fletcher Sandbeck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mar 13, 2013, at 3:50 PM, "Erik Vandermey - WebCentrix, Inc." <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mac OS X Server 10.8.2
>>>>> Lasso 8.6.0.1 (reports as 8.6.0 in the admin console)
>>>>>
>>>>> I rewrote some email sending routines using the example below, and included adding the email message parameters to a SQL table just in case the email_SMTP tag errors out. Good thing I did, Email_SMTP apparently suffers from the same problem as Email_Send in that when DNS goes deaf, the email won't send in either case until I restart Lasso for that site.
>>>>>
>>>>> So although the below code results in more efficient sending, it only works as long as DNS doesn't go deaf. Filing a bug report...
>>>>
>>>> This is really why the email queue exists in the first place.  You can use [Email_Send] with an -Immediate tag and the SMTP interaction will occur immediately, but if there is a problem on your server or with the remote SMTP server then the email will be lost.  The queue ensures that the email is stored so that once the server problems are sorted out it can be sent.
>>>>
>>>> What I'd like to see is an option to take advantage of either a local relay like sendmail or a third-party API like those which Elastic Email or other transactional email services provide.  That would speed up the mail queue and offload the actual work of SMTP interaction.  Plus, services like Elastic return an ID that can be used for further API calls so you could get information about deliverability and open rates.
>>>>
>>>> [fletcher]
>>>>
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RE: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Rick Draper-2
Not to devalue the frustration of others, I just want to chime in with the reverse experience.  We have several a Lasso 8.5.6 applications running on a number of servers, one of those does a daily check of ID card validity and sends email to selected cardholders to follow a certain procedure to renew their card.  This can involve thousands of emails.

This solution was originally written in Lasso 3.* circa 2003/4 and has never suffered from email or DNS deafness issues experienced by others.  It does run on Windows, so there is likely a difference, and it does have some issues with memory creep, so it is not perfect.  We do also have our own DNS and email servers, so maybe there is another difference.

I offer this only because of all the frustration being vented - [email_send] is stable for us on Lasso 8.5.6 / Windows Server 2003.  Similarly, we have lasso 9.2.5/6?? Running on CentOS 5.8?? and are using email_send without issue.

I hope that LassoSoft can track down the issue because it is a shame that people will be compelled to leave Lasso because of email - unreliable email sending it is such a deal breaker with clients.

Very best regards,

Rick


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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Patrick Larkin-2
We have our own DNS and mail servers but everything runs on MacOS X including the Lasso server which occasionally stops sending mail.  I have another Lasso server on OS X which sends mail and never has issues.  

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 14, 2013, at 4:34 PM, "Rick Draper" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not to devalue the frustration of others, I just want to chime in with the reverse experience.  We have several a Lasso 8.5.6 applications running on a number of servers, one of those does a daily check of ID card validity and sends email to selected cardholders to follow a certain procedure to renew their card.  This can involve thousands of emails.
>
> This solution was originally written in Lasso 3.* circa 2003/4 and has never suffered from email or DNS deafness issues experienced by others.  It does run on Windows, so there is likely a difference, and it does have some issues with memory creep, so it is not perfect.  We do also have our own DNS and email servers, so maybe there is another difference.
>
> I offer this only because of all the frustration being vented - [email_send] is stable for us on Lasso 8.5.6 / Windows Server 2003.  Similarly, we have lasso 9.2.5/6?? Running on CentOS 5.8?? and are using email_send without issue.
>
> I hope that LassoSoft can track down the issue because it is a shame that people will be compelled to leave Lasso because of email - unreliable email sending it is such a deal breaker with clients.
>
> Very best regards,
>
> Rick
>
>
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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Lars A. Gundersen-2
In reply to this post by Rick Draper-2
The issue seems to be OS X specific.

I think Lassosoft needs to find a real-world-similar way of stresstesting the SMTP or underlying Net-tags from OS X to get to the bottom of this (which is not easy since it's difficult to test to lots of external systems which is the situation in which the bug pops up, i.e. when you send out lots of emails to lots of external systems).
But it's stopping Lasso from being scaleable on OS X if you send a certain volume of emails pr user.

L
On 14. mars 2013, at 21:34, Rick Draper <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not to devalue the frustration of others, I just want to chime in with the reverse experience.  We have several a Lasso 8.5.6 applications running on a number of servers, one of those does a daily check of ID card validity and sends email to selected cardholders to follow a certain procedure to renew their card.  This can involve thousands of emails.
>
> This solution was originally written in Lasso 3.* circa 2003/4 and has never suffered from email or DNS deafness issues experienced by others.  It does run on Windows, so there is likely a difference, and it does have some issues with memory creep, so it is not perfect.  We do also have our own DNS and email servers, so maybe there is another difference.
>
> I offer this only because of all the frustration being vented - [email_send] is stable for us on Lasso 8.5.6 / Windows Server 2003.  Similarly, we have lasso 9.2.5/6?? Running on CentOS 5.8?? and are using email_send without issue.
>
> I hope that LassoSoft can track down the issue because it is a shame that people will be compelled to leave Lasso because of email - unreliable email sending it is such a deal breaker with clients.
>
> Very best regards,
>
> Rick
>
>
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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Seth Ganahl
In reply to this post by Erik Vandermey - WebCentrix, Inc.
I can confirm that this is EXACTLY the behavior that I'm experiencing with
Lasso 8.6.0 running on OS X Server 10.6.8.  Thanks for the DNS tip Erik.  I
just had the email queue fail for probably the 10th time today, I switched
over to the Setup tab in Site Admin, and sure enough the DNS Lookup test
failed.  I restarted the site, re-tried the DNS lookup which then worked,
and re-queued the Email Errors.

-Seth

On 3/14/13 11:26 AM, "Erik Vandermey - WebCentrix, Inc."
<[hidden email]> did quoth:

> All DNS lookups fail. I verify this by going to the siteadmin.lassoapp for the
> given site experiencing problems:
>
> Setup > Site > Lasso Settings screen and click on the "Test" button in the
> "Domain Name Lookups" section.
>
> Regards,
> ---
> Erik Van-der-Mey € [hidden email] € (AIM/iChat: [hidden email])
> WebCentrix, Inc. € http://webcentrix.net € Web Hosting/Co-Location/Dedicated
> Servers  
> Certified Lasso Developer (CLD) € Kerio Connect/Control/Operator Reseller
>
>
>
> On Mar 14, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Anibal Escobar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> So I guess the root of the problem is the DNS lookup failing.  How do you
>> know that the DNS lookup fails?  Is the DNS lookup you're referring to Lasso
>> trying to find the mail server, or the mail server trying to find the MX
>> records of the domains to which the messages are going?
>
>
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-------------------------------------------------------
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Ganahl Consulting ­ Web Applications
http://www.ganahlconsulting.com/
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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Sean Stephens-2
Lassoers

Re: OSX DNS Deafness Issues on Lasso 8.6

As it were, I thought it important to have LassoSoft officially chime in on this thread. If only to clarify that those individuals suffering from issues with DNS deafness should know: DNS may not be for everyone, but LassoSoft has been listening.

Unfortunately (not to beat a dead horse), but we inherited the language and all of it's pimples. Our responsibility as an organization is to ensure we drive the whole language and community forward with the priorities of the entire community as a whole within the confines of our resources.

Unfortunately, despite having invested months of research and tens of thousands of dollars into the issues in 8.x  - we haven't been able to even find a clue to what the problem is for OSX DNS Deafness Issues on Lasso 8.x. It may be a deafness issue, but we have been blinded to its cause.

To make matters worse, it is only an issue in one very specific place: Lasso 8.x on Mac OS X. Lasso 9 does not suffer this issue. CentOS or Windows don't either.

Our best guess is simple. Given the architecture of 8.x, something happens at OS level which breaks the listening connection with the email queue. LassoSoft, unlike the architecture of PHP, for example, is always awake and ready for action like a ninja, not woken up from a snooze every time it is needed. So if something at OS level stops communicating with Lasso, Lasso can't do anything about it. *Unfortunately, this means that it is unlikely that this issue has a solution within Lasso itself that isn't a "tickle hack", or some such thing.

*We haven't implemented any tickler hacks into Lasso and packaged them into the source. It would be unethical to charge for a hack when the community is aware of the issue as much as we are. But that still leaves us crippled: there is unlikely a formal solution which can be presented by us, as the issue is outside our sandbox, in dark places we cannot reach. Plus, it's not a pervasive issue, being isolated to OSX - so the hacks are still the best answer we all know about.

Ironically, other languages don't solve this issue. PHP and Python merely shoot off emails and forget about them - "fire and forget" - so they don't even begin to have these issues. Lasso attempts to "manage" emails for you. But after a period of no use the communication door gets rusted shut and the babysitter gets stuck with all of the children and nowhere to go with them. Lasso, in trying to help with childcare, becomes the problem, not the solution.

Technically, you can achieve the same result in Lasso as PHP by simply calling the command line directly with Lasso with [OS_Process]. Then Lasso isn't babysitting your emails, and no deafness occurs. I other words, I believe theoretically one can use [OS_Process] to send mail without relying on the Lasso shortcuts.

Or, just send everything without a DNS lookup via your local machine;

[email_send(-host='localhost',
-from=#from, -bcc=#bcc, -to=#to,
-subject=#subject, -body=#body,
-attachments=#attachments, -immediate)]

Ergo, instead of moving your whole codebase to another language (or just moving to CentOS), just remove Lasso's embedded email shortcuts and do it like the other languages do it.

Presto. ROI at its finest.

Let's be clear: all any high-level language (like Lasso) is doing is providing you with a set of shortcuts to make your life easier - so you don't have to code in machine language. Lasso has three times as many built-in shortcuts as PHP. If one single shortcut has an issue, it is not good ROI to throw out the whole system: just don't use that one particular shortcut. Throwing Lasso out for this one issue is like throwing out a room full of babies out with your bath water.

Using an external service, or "sending and forgetting" is a forth methodology to solve the issue if you are stuck on 8.x and can't move to 9. Instead of Lasso providing the management features, an external service can do it for you. For an example by the brilliant Mr. Jason Huck, you might look here (Mandrill for Lasso);

https://bitbucket.org/jhuck/mandrill-for-lasso

This is where I shake my fist at the mountain and again chant "the fix for Lasso 8 is Lasso 9". The architecture is stronger. The code is more elegant, and less prone to errors. There are more and better shortcuts. If the mountain can't come to you, you must go to the mountain - LassoSoft hasn't been able to move it, for all our effort.

So for now, skip the Lasso Email tags in Lasso 8.x on OSX if you must, and "do it the PHP way". Or move OSes (we'll exchange your license, if it is current). Or use localhost. Or better yet, move to Lasso 9.

There isn't a fix for this issue on OSX. There isn't even the glimmer of a fix. For that, I am sorry. I apologize that my words can't make your email send for you, but it's all we have to go on for now.

Thanks for listening! You are all much more reasonable to work with than OS-level DNS.

Sean Stephens
CEO
LassoSoft Inc.
http://www.lassosoft.com

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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Mason Miller
We are using Jason's Mandrill email_send replacement for several hundred emails per day with wonderful success. My only suggestion would be that if you have more than a few dozen emails per day, use your key with test email until Mandrill has increased your volume based on developing trust for your account.

As for Lasso 9. I really want to deploy a new product I am developing using 9, but there are still gaping holes in documentation and code examples. I have tried several times to install and get going, but there is always something that stops me. I know that the list is here for that, but I like to tinker on my own time. I love the life that LassoSoft has breathed into Lasso, but 9 still does not feel like a finished product.

Regards,

Mason

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 18, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Sean Stephens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Lassoers
>
> Re: OSX DNS Deafness Issues on Lasso 8.6
>
> As it were, I thought it important to have LassoSoft officially chime in on this thread. If only to clarify that those individuals suffering from issues with DNS deafness should know: DNS may not be for everyone, but LassoSoft has been listening.
>
> Unfortunately (not to beat a dead horse), but we inherited the language and all of it's pimples. Our responsibility as an organization is to ensure we drive the whole language and community forward with the priorities of the entire community as a whole within the confines of our resources.
>
> Unfortunately, despite having invested months of research and tens of thousands of dollars into the issues in 8.x  - we haven't been able to even find a clue to what the problem is for OSX DNS Deafness Issues on Lasso 8.x. It may be a deafness issue, but we have been blinded to its cause.
>
> To make matters worse, it is only an issue in one very specific place: Lasso 8.x on Mac OS X. Lasso 9 does not suffer this issue. CentOS or Windows don't either.
>
> Our best guess is simple. Given the architecture of 8.x, something happens at OS level which breaks the listening connection with the email queue. LassoSoft, unlike the architecture of PHP, for example, is always awake and ready for action like a ninja, not woken up from a snooze every time it is needed. So if something at OS level stops communicating with Lasso, Lasso can't do anything about it. *Unfortunately, this means that it is unlikely that this issue has a solution within Lasso itself that isn't a "tickle hack", or some such thing.
>
> *We haven't implemented any tickler hacks into Lasso and packaged them into the source. It would be unethical to charge for a hack when the community is aware of the issue as much as we are. But that still leaves us crippled: there is unlikely a formal solution which can be presented by us, as the issue is outside our sandbox, in dark places we cannot reach. Plus, it's not a pervasive issue, being isolated to OSX - so the hacks are still the best answer we all know about.
>
> Ironically, other languages don't solve this issue. PHP and Python merely shoot off emails and forget about them - "fire and forget" - so they don't even begin to have these issues. Lasso attempts to "manage" emails for you. But after a period of no use the communication door gets rusted shut and the babysitter gets stuck with all of the children and nowhere to go with them. Lasso, in trying to help with childcare, becomes the problem, not the solution.
>
> Technically, you can achieve the same result in Lasso as PHP by simply calling the command line directly with Lasso with [OS_Process]. Then Lasso isn't babysitting your emails, and no deafness occurs. I other words, I believe theoretically one can use [OS_Process] to send mail without relying on the Lasso shortcuts.
>
> Or, just send everything without a DNS lookup via your local machine;
>
> [email_send(-host='localhost',
> -from=#from, -bcc=#bcc, -to=#to,
> -subject=#subject, -body=#body,
> -attachments=#attachments, -immediate)]
>
> Ergo, instead of moving your whole codebase to another language (or just moving to CentOS), just remove Lasso's embedded email shortcuts and do it like the other languages do it.
>
> Presto. ROI at its finest.
>
> Let's be clear: all any high-level language (like Lasso) is doing is providing you with a set of shortcuts to make your life easier - so you don't have to code in machine language. Lasso has three times as many built-in shortcuts as PHP. If one single shortcut has an issue, it is not good ROI to throw out the whole system: just don't use that one particular shortcut. Throwing Lasso out for this one issue is like throwing out a room full of babies out with your bath water.
>
> Using an external service, or "sending and forgetting" is a forth methodology to solve the issue if you are stuck on 8.x and can't move to 9. Instead of Lasso providing the management features, an external service can do it for you. For an example by the brilliant Mr. Jason Huck, you might look here (Mandrill for Lasso);
>
> https://bitbucket.org/jhuck/mandrill-for-lasso
>
> This is where I shake my fist at the mountain and again chant "the fix for Lasso 8 is Lasso 9". The architecture is stronger. The code is more elegant, and less prone to errors. There are more and better shortcuts. If the mountain can't come to you, you must go to the mountain - LassoSoft hasn't been able to move it, for all our effort.
>
> So for now, skip the Lasso Email tags in Lasso 8.x on OSX if you must, and "do it the PHP way". Or move OSes (we'll exchange your license, if it is current). Or use localhost. Or better yet, move to Lasso 9.
>
> There isn't a fix for this issue on OSX. There isn't even the glimmer of a fix. For that, I am sorry. I apologize that my words can't make your email send for you, but it's all we have to go on for now.
>
> Thanks for listening! You are all much more reasonable to work with than OS-level DNS.
>
> Sean Stephens
> CEO
> LassoSoft Inc.
> http://www.lassosoft.com
>
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RE: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Rick Draper-2
> I love the life that LassoSoft has breathed into Lasso, but 9 still does not feel like a finished product.
> Mason

Hi Mason,

Not to diver this thread significantly, we have been using Lasso 9 in production for a long while now and while I would have agreed with your sentiments a year or 2 ago, not so now.  Documentation issues aside (they certainly appear to be being addressed), Lasso 9 is stable and to my mind a finished product.

Very best regards,

Rick



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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Mason Miller
Rick,

I will dive in again when the docs are done.

Mason

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 18, 2013, at 5:20 PM, "Rick Draper" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I love the life that LassoSoft has breathed into Lasso, but 9 still does not feel like a finished product.
>> Mason
>
> Hi Mason,
>
> Not to diver this thread significantly, we have been using Lasso 9 in production for a long while now and while I would have agreed with your sentiments a year or 2 ago, not so now.  Documentation issues aside (they certainly appear to be being addressed), Lasso 9 is stable and to my mind a finished product.
>
> Very best regards,
>
> Rick
>
>
>
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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Carl Ketterling
In reply to this post by Sean Stephens-2
> This is where I shake my fist at the mountain and again chant "the fix for
> Lasso 8 is Lasso 9". The architecture is stronger. The code is more elegant,
> and less prone to errors. There are more and better shortcuts. If the mountain
> can't come to you, you must go to the mountain - LassoSoft hasn't been able to
> move it, for all our effort.

I feel obligated to point out that Lasso 9 email is not completely without
problems on Mac OS X.  On a server that sends around 200 messages per day
via Lasso, every day or two an email gets stuck.  Unfortunately, the only
way to tell that a problem exists is to look at the email queue ‹ the
message is never bounced and isn¹t delivered sometime in the future.  The
only course of action that I've been able to find is to restart the Lasso
instance.  I¹ve reported this to LassoSoft support and provided some debug
information, but so far this still happens.  I¹m hopeful this will be
resolved in some future release.

Carl
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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Mason Miller
That sounds just like 8.x!  Maybe the trick is to find the problem in 9, and them back the solution into 8.x.

Mandrill is a fine solution for my email, as I am my own customer and don't have to explain why I have to have a third party deliver my mail.

But back to the email thread, what version of 9, maybe this has already been addressed.

Mason

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 18, 2013, at 6:19 PM, Carl Ketterling <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> This is where I shake my fist at the mountain and again chant "the fix for
>> Lasso 8 is Lasso 9". The architecture is stronger. The code is more elegant,
>> and less prone to errors. There are more and better shortcuts. If the mountain
>> can't come to you, you must go to the mountain - LassoSoft hasn't been able to
>> move it, for all our effort.
>
> I feel obligated to point out that Lasso 9 email is not completely without
> problems on Mac OS X.  On a server that sends around 200 messages per day
> via Lasso, every day or two an email gets stuck.  Unfortunately, the only
> way to tell that a problem exists is to look at the email queue ‹ the
> message is never bounced and isn¹t delivered sometime in the future.  The
> only course of action that I've been able to find is to restart the Lasso
> instance.  I¹ve reported this to LassoSoft support and provided some debug
> information, but so far this still happens.  I¹m hopeful this will be
> resolved in some future release.
>
> Carl
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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Brad Lindsay
In reply to this post by Carl Ketterling
What version of 9 are you using? We periodically had this problem on a
server that sends 200-400 emails a day running some early version of
9.0, but we haven't seen it since upgrading it to either a later version
of 9.0 or 9.1 (can't recall which).

Brad

On 3/18/13 6:19 PM, Carl Ketterling wrote:

>> This is where I shake my fist at the mountain and again chant "the fix for
>> Lasso 8 is Lasso 9". The architecture is stronger. The code is more elegant,
>> and less prone to errors. There are more and better shortcuts. If the mountain
>> can't come to you, you must go to the mountain - LassoSoft hasn't been able to
>> move it, for all our effort.
>
> I feel obligated to point out that Lasso 9 email is not completely without
> problems on Mac OS X.  On a server that sends around 200 messages per day
> via Lasso, every day or two an email gets stuck.  Unfortunately, the only
> way to tell that a problem exists is to look at the email queue ‹ the
> message is never bounced and isn¹t delivered sometime in the future.  The
> only course of action that I've been able to find is to restart the Lasso
> instance.  I¹ve reported this to LassoSoft support and provided some debug
> information, but so far this still happens.  I¹m hopeful this will be
> resolved in some future release.
>
> Carl
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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Carl Ketterling
In reply to this post by Mason Miller
From what I could tell by reading (and I've never experienced it), Lasso 8
became deaf and wouldn't send *ANY* messages.  Lasso 9 (from my experience)
just hold on to *ONE* message and messages before and after that one will
continue to work normally.

Am I wrong about the Lasso 8 symptom?

Carl


On 3/18/13 5:46 PM, "Mason Miller" <[hidden email]> wrote:

That sounds just like 8.x!  Maybe the trick is to find the problem in 9, and
them back the solution into 8.x.

Mandrill is a fine solution for my email, as I am my own customer and don't
have to explain why I have to have a third party deliver my mail.

But back to the email thread, what version of 9, maybe this has already been
addressed.

Mason

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 18, 2013, at 6:19 PM, Carl Ketterling <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> This is where I shake my fist at the mountain and again chant "the fix for
>> Lasso 8 is Lasso 9". The architecture is stronger. The code is more elegant,
>> and less prone to errors. There are more and better shortcuts. If the
mountain
>> can't come to you, you must go to the mountain - LassoSoft hasn't been able
to

>> move it, for all our effort.
>
> I feel obligated to point out that Lasso 9 email is not completely without
> problems on Mac OS X.  On a server that sends around 200 messages per day
> via Lasso, every day or two an email gets stuck.  Unfortunately, the only
> way to tell that a problem exists is to look at the email queue ‹ the
> message is never bounced and isn¹t delivered sometime in the future.  The
> only course of action that I've been able to find is to restart the Lasso
> instance.  I¹ve reported this to LassoSoft support and provided some debug
> information, but so far this still happens.  I¹m hopeful this will be
> resolved in some future release.
>
> Carl


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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Brad Lindsay
On 3/18/13 7:20 PM, Carl Ketterling wrote:
>  From what I could tell by reading (and I've never experienced it), Lasso 8
> became deaf and wouldn't send *ANY* messages.  Lasso 9 (from my experience)
> just hold on to *ONE* message and messages before and after that one will
> continue to work normally.

For us, in early versions of 9, that one message would stop later emails
from sending too.

Brad
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RE: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Rick Draper-2
> For us, in early versions of 9, that one message would stop later emails from sending too.
> Brad
 
And also for us... not seen since 9.1.*

Very best regards,

Rick



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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Carl Ketterling
In reply to this post by Brad Lindsay
Brad,

That's encouraging news.  Here's what I'm using:

Lasso v9.2.4 is running on Mac OS X Server v10.7.5. I doubt that it matters,
but I'm connecting to FileMaker Server v11.0.3.309 running on Mac OS X
Server v10.6.8.

Carl


On 3/18/13 6:17 PM, "Brad Lindsay" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What version of 9 are you using? We periodically had this problem on a
> server that sends 200-400 emails a day running some early version of
> 9.0, but we haven't seen it since upgrading it to either a later version
> of 9.0 or 9.1 (can't recall which).
>
> Brad
>
> On 3/18/13 6:19 PM, Carl Ketterling wrote:
>>> This is where I shake my fist at the mountain and again chant "the fix for
>>> Lasso 8 is Lasso 9". The architecture is stronger. The code is more elegant,
>>> and less prone to errors. There are more and better shortcuts. If the
>>> mountain
>>> can't come to you, you must go to the mountain - LassoSoft hasn't been able
>>> to
>>> move it, for all our effort.
>>
>> I feel obligated to point out that Lasso 9 email is not completely without
>> problems on Mac OS X.  On a server that sends around 200 messages per day
>> via Lasso, every day or two an email gets stuck.  Unfortunately, the only
>> way to tell that a problem exists is to look at the email queue ‹ the
>> message is never bounced and isn¹t delivered sometime in the future.  The
>> only course of action that I've been able to find is to restart the Lasso
>> instance.  I¹ve reported this to LassoSoft support and provided some debug
>> information, but so far this still happens.  I¹m hopeful this will be
>> resolved in some future release.
>>
>> Carl


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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Jonathan Guthrie-3
In reply to this post by Brad Lindsay
On 2013-03-18, at 7:17 PM, Brad Lindsay <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What version of 9 are you using? We periodically had this problem on a server that sends 200-400 emails a day running some early version of 9.0, but we haven't seen it since upgrading it to either a later version of 9.0 or 9.1 (can't recall which).

That's correct, there were db locking issues early on - the problem described is something that has been fixed for a while (since 9.1.4 or 9.1.5 from memory), and is unrelated to the Lasso 8 issue.

Jono

----------------------------
Jonathan Guthrie
[hidden email]
@iamjono
LassoSoft Inc.
AIM Chatroom: lassochat
IRC/freenode #lasso

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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Mason Miller
In reply to this post by Carl Ketterling
Could it be a bad email address?

Mason

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 18, 2013, at 7:28 PM, Carl Ketterling <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Brad,
>
> That's encouraging news.  Here's what I'm using:
>
> Lasso v9.2.4 is running on Mac OS X Server v10.7.5. I doubt that it matters,
> but I'm connecting to FileMaker Server v11.0.3.309 running on Mac OS X
> Server v10.6.8.
>
> Carl
>
>
> On 3/18/13 6:17 PM, "Brad Lindsay" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> What version of 9 are you using? We periodically had this problem on a
>> server that sends 200-400 emails a day running some early version of
>> 9.0, but we haven't seen it since upgrading it to either a later version
>> of 9.0 or 9.1 (can't recall which).
>>
>> Brad
>>
>> On 3/18/13 6:19 PM, Carl Ketterling wrote:
>>>> This is where I shake my fist at the mountain and again chant "the fix for
>>>> Lasso 8 is Lasso 9". The architecture is stronger. The code is more elegant,
>>>> and less prone to errors. There are more and better shortcuts. If the
>>>> mountain
>>>> can't come to you, you must go to the mountain - LassoSoft hasn't been able
>>>> to
>>>> move it, for all our effort.
>>>
>>> I feel obligated to point out that Lasso 9 email is not completely without
>>> problems on Mac OS X.  On a server that sends around 200 messages per day
>>> via Lasso, every day or two an email gets stuck.  Unfortunately, the only
>>> way to tell that a problem exists is to look at the email queue ‹ the
>>> message is never bounced and isn¹t delivered sometime in the future.  The
>>> only course of action that I've been able to find is to restart the Lasso
>>> instance.  I¹ve reported this to LassoSoft support and provided some debug
>>> information, but so far this still happens.  I¹m hopeful this will be
>>> resolved in some future release.
>>>
>>> Carl
>
>
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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

Carl Ketterling
Not so far. Every time, a restart of the instance allows the email to be delivered.

Carl Ketterling
Thursby Software Systems, Inc.

(sent from a phone, please excuse the brevity)

On Mar 18, 2013, at 7:16 PM, Mason Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Could it be a bad email address?
>
> Mason
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 18, 2013, at 7:28 PM, Carl Ketterling <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Brad,
>>
>> That's encouraging news.  Here's what I'm using:
>>
>> Lasso v9.2.4 is running on Mac OS X Server v10.7.5. I doubt that it matters,
>> but I'm connecting to FileMaker Server v11.0.3.309 running on Mac OS X
>> Server v10.6.8.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> On 3/18/13 6:17 PM, "Brad Lindsay" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> What version of 9 are you using? We periodically had this problem on a
>>> server that sends 200-400 emails a day running some early version of
>>> 9.0, but we haven't seen it since upgrading it to either a later version
>>> of 9.0 or 9.1 (can't recall which).
>>>
>>> Brad
>>>
>>> On 3/18/13 6:19 PM, Carl Ketterling wrote:
>>>>> This is where I shake my fist at the mountain and again chant "the fix for
>>>>> Lasso 8 is Lasso 9". The architecture is stronger. The code is more elegant,
>>>>> and less prone to errors. There are more and better shortcuts. If the
>>>>> mountain
>>>>> can't come to you, you must go to the mountain - LassoSoft hasn't been able
>>>>> to
>>>>> move it, for all our effort.
>>>>
>>>> I feel obligated to point out that Lasso 9 email is not completely without
>>>> problems on Mac OS X.  On a server that sends around 200 messages per day
>>>> via Lasso, every day or two an email gets stuck.  Unfortunately, the only
>>>> way to tell that a problem exists is to look at the email queue ‹ the
>>>> message is never bounced and isn¹t delivered sometime in the future.  The
>>>> only course of action that I've been able to find is to restart the Lasso
>>>> instance.  I¹ve reported this to LassoSoft support and provided some debug
>>>> information, but so far this still happens.  I¹m hopeful this will be
>>>> resolved in some future release.
>>>>
>>>> Carl
>>
>>
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Re: stuck email queue - seeking automated lasso restart

stevepiercy
In reply to this post by Sean Stephens-2
Save a dead horse: release a public issue tracker!

--steve


On 3/18/13 at 4:37 PM, [hidden email] (Sean Stephens) pronounced:

>Lassoers
>
>Re: OSX DNS Deafness Issues on Lasso 8.6
>
>As it were, I thought it important to have LassoSoft officially
>chime in on this thread. If only to clarify that those
>individuals suffering from issues with DNS deafness should
>know: DNS may not be for everyone, but LassoSoft has been listening.
>
>Unfortunately (not to beat a dead horse), but we inherited the
>language and all of it's pimples. Our responsibility as an
>organization is to ensure we drive the whole language and
>community forward with the priorities of the entire community
>as a whole within the confines of our resources.
>
>Unfortunately, despite having invested months of research and
>tens of thousands of dollars into the issues in 8.x  - we
>haven't been able to even find a clue to what the problem is
>for OSX DNS Deafness Issues on Lasso 8.x. It may be a deafness
>issue, but we have been blinded to its cause.
>
>To make matters worse, it is only an issue in one very specific
>place: Lasso 8.x on Mac OS X. Lasso 9 does not suffer this
>issue. CentOS or Windows don't either.
>
>Our best guess is simple. Given the architecture of 8.x,
>something happens at OS level which breaks the listening
>connection with the email queue. LassoSoft, unlike the
>architecture of PHP, for example, is always awake and ready for
>action like a ninja, not woken up from a snooze every time it
>is needed. So if something at OS level stops communicating with
>Lasso, Lasso can't do anything about it. *Unfortunately, this
>means that it is unlikely that this issue has a solution within
>Lasso itself that isn't a "tickle hack", or some such thing.
>
>*We haven't implemented any tickler hacks into Lasso and
>packaged them into the source. It would be unethical to charge
>for a hack when the community is aware of the issue as much as
>we are. But that still leaves us crippled: there is unlikely a
>formal solution which can be presented by us, as the issue is
>outside our sandbox, in dark places we cannot reach. Plus, it's
>not a pervasive issue, being isolated to OSX - so the hacks are
>still the best answer we all know about.
>
>Ironically, other languages don't solve this issue. PHP and
>Python merely shoot off emails and forget about them - "fire
>and forget" - so they don't even begin to have these issues.
>Lasso attempts to "manage" emails for you. But after a period
>of no use the communication door gets rusted shut and the
>babysitter gets stuck with all of the children and nowhere to
>go with them. Lasso, in trying to help with childcare, becomes
>the problem, not the solution.
>
>Technically, you can achieve the same result in Lasso as PHP by
>simply calling the command line directly with Lasso with
>[OS_Process]. Then Lasso isn't babysitting your emails, and no
>deafness occurs. I other words, I believe theoretically one can
>use [OS_Process] to send mail without relying on the Lasso shortcuts.
>
>Or, just send everything without a DNS lookup via your local machine;
>
>[email_send(-host='localhost', -from=#from, -bcc=#bcc, -to=#to,
>-subject=#subject, -body=#body,
>-attachments=#attachments, -immediate)]
>
>Ergo, instead of moving your whole codebase to another language
>(or just moving to CentOS), just remove Lasso's embedded email
>shortcuts and do it like the other languages do it.
>Presto. ROI at its finest.
>
>Let's be clear: all any high-level language (like Lasso) is
>doing is providing you with a set of shortcuts to make your
>life easier - so you don't have to code in machine language.
>Lasso has three times as many built-in shortcuts as PHP. If one
>single shortcut has an issue, it is not good ROI to throw out
>the whole system: just don't use that one particular shortcut.
>Throwing Lasso out for this one issue is like throwing out a
>room full of babies out with your bath water.
>
>Using an external service, or "sending and forgetting" is a
>forth methodology to solve the issue if you are stuck on 8.x
>and can't move to 9. Instead of Lasso providing the management
>features, an external service can do it for you. For an example
>by the brilliant Mr. Jason Huck, you might look here (Mandrill
>for Lasso);
>
>https://bitbucket.org/jhuck/mandrill-for-lasso
>
>This is where I shake my fist at the mountain and again chant
>"the fix for Lasso 8 is Lasso 9". The architecture is stronger.
>The code is more elegant, and less prone to errors. There are
>more and better shortcuts. If the mountain can't come to you,
>you must go to the mountain - LassoSoft hasn't been able to
>move it, for all our effort.
>
>So for now, skip the Lasso Email tags in Lasso 8.x on OSX if
>you must, and "do it the PHP way". Or move OSes (we'll exchange
>your license, if it is current). Or use localhost. Or better
>yet, move to Lasso 9.
>There isn't a fix for this issue on OSX. There isn't even the
>glimmer of a fix. For that, I am sorry. I apologize that my
>words can't make your email send for you, but it's all we have
>to go on for now.
>
>Thanks for listening! You are all much more reasonable to work with than OS-level DNS.
>
>Sean Stephens
>CEO
>LassoSoft Inc.
>http://www.lassosoft.com
>
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-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
-- --
Steve Piercy               Web Site Builder              
Soquel, CA
<[hidden email]>                  <http://www.StevePiercy.com/>

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