logical separation (was Re: An Open Letter to LassoSoft!)

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logical separation (was Re: An Open Letter to LassoSoft!)

Clive Bruton
There seem to be about four different arguments going on here that  
are related, but are also logically separable:

        A: Free Lasso

        B: Open source Lasso

        C: Marketing Lasso

        D: Growing the user base

Each one of these has sub-arguments too, I'll try to delve through them:

Free Lasso
There are at least three distinct concepts here: and all free Lasso,  
a crippled free Lasso and a freely distributable, run-time Lasso App.  
The first of these, I think, necessarily means that Lasso becomes an  
open source application. Jim posted earlier that he thought this was  
unsupportable, the community base to further develop the application  
just isn't there. I countered this by pointing out that there are  
already a fairly large number of users contributing tags, etc. I  
think you can take either view on this and think you're right -  
personally, despite making the point that there is good community  
support, I'm not sure an open source Lasso would be the way to go.

Perhaps a version that started to include third-party modules/tags by  
default would be a middle way?

As to a crippled free version - I think this is pretty much a non-
starter. Firstly you're asking LassoSoft to support two separate  
products and secondly you're asking the user of that software to make  
a large number of compromises in trying to assess/use Lasso. The  
current developer edition seems to offer almost everything you could  
wish for in this environment. Maybe it doesn't offer everything that  
everybody would like, but it's always going to be a compromise if  
there's going to be a commercial application too.

Run-time Lasso applications have been discussed here for as long as I  
can remember - and to my mind they offer about the best compromise  
you're going to get as far as having a commercial server application  
and being able to distribute free/low cost applications. I see that  
there are lost of people on this list that have at various times  
struggled to build a business model on Lasso solutions - at least  
some of them would be well served by this.

But, we don't know (or at least I don't) whether LassoSoft is  
considering this as a possibility or not (if someone could comment as  
to whether this was mentioned at the summit?).

Open source Lasso
The fundamental question here is: will an open source Lasso suddenly  
grow the market for Lasso and serve the entire user base any better  
than now? And, even if it does, will the application continue to be  
developed?

If Lasso was made free and open source tomorrow, is it likely that it  
will achieve the dominance PHP has right now? I think the answer to  
that is no. If it ever could reach that scale it's something that's  
going to take a number of years, I think probably more than five. So,  
this route is not going to be an overnight solution. There's also a  
fair chance that such a move wouldn't make any difference to Lasso's  
market share and that the application itself would not be developed  
sufficiently in the future to stay up with the rest of the pack.

Marketing Lasso
This is a tough one: marketing is expensive, and can be really hard  
to target. Probably some of the best marketing in this area comes  
from the graphics software vendors, who spend a great deal of time  
and effort making sure that their products are in use by the next  
generation of students coming out of art colleges. Both Quark and  
Adobe offer substantial reductions to students, which ends up  
influencing the professional market over a period of time because the  
skills in the marketplace a skewed towards the vendor that's doing  
the best marketing to students.

 From a Lasso point of view it would seem that LassoSoft has some  
strategy in this sector in place, but perhaps needs to directly  
market to schools/colleges to make sure their offering is understood.

Growing the userbase
 From my perspective the best way of growing the userbase is to start  
by targeting schools/colleges, which has a payoff in 1-5 years, and  
by offering a run-time compiler solution. The latter of these may not  
seem an obvious marketing angle for Lasso, but it seems to be an  
approach that would be welcome in other developmental languages (ie  
PHP compilation), may get a few more developers on board, and may  
appeal to some customers. Lasso gets some mention in the process  
because some clients will ask how the application was developed - and  
may want to develop their own solutions.


Just some thoughts


-- Clive

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Count Distinct in lasso?

Daniel Roth-3
Hello,

Can any body clue me in where how I might be able to count distinct  
records with lasso?

i'm using -distinct to eliminate dupes in a category listing search,  
but would like to show how many records there are for each category

i tried searching and found some clues to mysql statements, but i'm  
wondering if it can be done in lasso with out using -sql.

newbie dan

thanks for any help


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Re: Count Distinct in lasso?

Fletcher Sandbeck-3
On 5/7/07 at 11:18 PM, [hidden email] (Daniel Roth) wrote:

>Can any body clue me in where how I might be able to count distinct records with lasso?
>
>i'm using -distinct to eliminate dupes in a category listing search,
>but would like to show how many records there are for each category
>
>i tried searching and found some clues to mysql statements, but i'm
>wondering if it can be done in lasso with out using -sql.

You'll need to use a SQL statement to do this.

     SELECT category, COUNT(*) AS cnt FROM table GROUP BY category;

Since Lasso automatically surrounds field names by back-quotes
you can't insert the COUNT(*) function into the generated SQL
statement using -ReturnField.

[fletcher]

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Fletcher Sandbeck                         [hidden email]
LassoSoft, LLC                          http://www.lassosoft.com


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Re: logical separation (was Re: An Open Letter to LassoSoft!)

Greg Hemphill
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton

On Mar 16, 2007, at 1:51 PM, Clive Bruton wrote:

> There seem to be about four different arguments going on here that  
> are related, but are also logically separable:
>
> A: Free Lasso
>
> B: Open source Lasso
>
> C: Marketing Lasso
>
> D: Growing the user base
>
> Each one of these has sub-arguments too, I'll try to delve through  
> them:
>
> Free Lasso
> There are at least three distinct concepts here: and all free  
> Lasso, a crippled free Lasso and a freely distributable, run-time  
> Lasso App. The first of these, I think, necessarily means that  
> Lasso becomes an open source application. Jim posted earlier that  
> he thought this was unsupportable, the community base to further  
> develop the application just isn't there. I countered this by  
> pointing out that there are already a fairly large number of users  
> contributing tags, etc. I think you can take either view on this  
> and think you're right - personally, despite making the point that  
> there is good community support, I'm not sure an open source Lasso  
> would be the way to go.
>
> Perhaps a version that started to include third-party modules/tags  
> by default would be a middle way?
>
> As to a crippled free version - I think this is pretty much a non-
> starter. Firstly you're asking LassoSoft to support two separate  
> products and secondly you're asking the user of that software to  
> make a large number of compromises in trying to assess/use Lasso.  
> The current developer edition seems to offer almost everything you  
> could wish for in this environment. Maybe it doesn't offer  
> everything that everybody would like, but it's always going to be a  
> compromise if there's going to be a commercial application too.
>
> Run-time Lasso applications have been discussed here for as long as  
> I can remember - and to my mind they offer about the best  
> compromise you're going to get as far as having a commercial server  
> application and being able to distribute free/low cost  
> applications. I see that there are lost of people on this list that  
> have at various times struggled to build a business model on Lasso  
> solutions - at least some of them would be well served by this.
>
> But, we don't know (or at least I don't) whether LassoSoft is  
> considering this as a possibility or not (if someone could comment  
> as to whether this was mentioned at the summit?).
>

 From what I've gathered they are well aware of the desire from some  
to make a run-time version of Lasso.  The products I've built using  
Lasso wouldn't benefit from this since we sell our apps with hosting  
bundled in (as well as configuring, setting up and maintiance).  But  
a few, Landman comes to mind, have products that would benefit from  
this... Am I dreaming or was this mentioned as being part of LP9??

> Open source Lasso
> The fundamental question here is: will an open source Lasso  
> suddenly grow the market for Lasso and serve the entire user base  
> any better than now? And, even if it does, will the application  
> continue to be developed?
>
> If Lasso was made free and open source tomorrow, is it likely that  
> it will achieve the dominance PHP has right now? I think the answer  
> to that is no. If it ever could reach that scale it's something  
> that's going to take a number of years, I think probably more than  
> five. So, this route is not going to be an overnight solution.  
> There's also a fair chance that such a move wouldn't make any  
> difference to Lasso's market share and that the application itself  
> would not be developed sufficiently in the future to stay up with  
> the rest of the pack.

Open source is good in many respects, but I think in the case of  
Lasso Kyle, Fletcher & etc. have a solid grasp on where to take  
Lasso.  From what I gleaned of LP9 from the summit it will take the  
things Lasso does well and do them even better, and overcome several  
of Lasso's short comings.  I believe we are best served by having a  
small group of developers who know the product inside and out and are  
focused on taking the product in the right direction.  While I think  
this community could offer a lot in an open source product... I'm  
concerned that the waters would get muddied with little or no benefit  
over doing more of what had continued to make Lasso great.

 From what I can tell LassoSoft's main source of income is selling  
Lasso products, but open sourcing Lasso would basicly kill that... so  
a whole new business module would have to be developed.  I question  
if LassoSoft would be viable only selling support or etc.  If Kyle,  
Fletcher & etc. couldn't make enough money to work full time  
developing and supporting Lasso; there wouldn't likely be much left  
for Lasso.  Its a gamble I hope they don't make ATM.

On as side note I don't recall making Lasso Open Source part of the  
Open Letter to LassoSoft thread, but maybe I just overlooked it.

> Marketing Lasso
> This is a tough one: marketing is expensive, and can be really hard  
> to target. Probably some of the best marketing in this area comes  
> from the graphics software vendors, who spend a great deal of time  
> and effort making sure that their products are in use by the next  
> generation of students coming out of art colleges. Both Quark and  
> Adobe offer substantial reductions to students, which ends up  
> influencing the professional market over a period of time because  
> the skills in the marketplace a skewed towards the vendor that's  
> doing the best marketing to students.
>
> From a Lasso point of view it would seem that LassoSoft has some  
> strategy in this sector in place, but perhaps needs to directly  
> market to schools/colleges to make sure their offering is understood.

At the summit they mentioned they are developing a text book and  
course for learning programing with Lasso.  So I believe they have  
some solid plans in this area... we'll just have to see how well it  
all pans out.

> Growing the userbase
> From my perspective the best way of growing the userbase is to  
> start by targeting schools/colleges, which has a payoff in 1-5  
> years, and by offering a run-time compiler solution. The latter of  
> these may not seem an obvious marketing angle for Lasso, but it  
> seems to be an approach that would be welcome in other  
> developmental languages (ie PHP compilation), may get a few more  
> developers on board, and may appeal to some customers. Lasso gets  
> some mention in the process because some clients will ask how the  
> application was developed - and may want to develop their own  
> solutions.

Well I think this is a two fold area.  Targeting students appears to  
be a strong focus in the future of LassoSoft, but also adding more  
functions and abilities into Lasso will best serve the base users.  
More goodies is what's most likely to get companies like ours to  
upgrade to the next version.

>
> Just some thoughts
>
>
> -- Clive
>
> ------------------------------
> Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
> Manage your list subscription: http://www.listsearch.com/ 
> lassotalk.lasso?manage


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Re: logical separation (was Re: An Open Letter to LassoSoft!)

Gordon McLean
Its interesting to have read all the various posts re the "Open  
letter to LassoSoft" and I guess the LassoSoft guys have taken the  
advice on board!

I dont remember, but could have missed the idea of creating a desktop  
version of Lasso along the lines of Servoy (www.servoy.com).  Servoy  
is a java based middle ware application that allows the user to  
connect to all the various databases Lasso uses from either a desktop  
smart client or via various web client versions.  The huge advantage  
of this is the ability to create a filemakeresque user interface in  
the office with all the benefits of a desktop app linked directly to  
the web based database.  LassoSoft may correctly assess that this is  
an irrelevant space, but with Adobe Apollo, Flex, Servoy etc etc all  
working hard on this concept I suspect it has legs.

IMHO Lasso as a product has some issues, but to a large extent they  
are trivial in the greater scheme of things, it works for the most  
part very very well!  Making it free is a non starter PHP is already  
there and it would be an also ran with so many other great  
technologies.  Growing the market substantially needs a partner like  
Adobe or similar and that space is very very full right now.  
Education, books etc ask Duncan Cameron how many he sold !!  it was a  
good book and could do with an update perhaps as a community we could  
write and maintain it on a Free basis (like we are suggesting  
LassoSoft do with LP!!) but I suspect I and many others are too busy  
right now !

The future of Lasso is very much in the hands of the LassoSoft boys  
and I guess they have a plan.  They have a strong mature product and  
if I were in their position I would be looking very very hard at  
Apollo, desktop versions of Lasso and perhaps another deal with  
Filemaker.  As a developer who has spent a lot of time learning Lasso  
I would ideally have a one stop solution that worked as a desktop and  
web app and used the same code base!  As it is I am using Lasso,  
JavaScript (in Servoy) ActionScript (Flash) etc etc

Lasso is a reliable and secure - what Lasso really needs is to get  
back to being an exciting new fun with new products that are closely  
aligned with a big player like Filemaker!  What Filemaker really need  
is Lasso because connecting FM to the web or another db in any other  
way than Lasso is a complicated and difficult process that Lasso does  
very very well.

Cheers
Gordon

On 8 May 2007, at 06:27, Greg Hemphill wrote:

>
> On Mar 16, 2007, at 1:51 PM, Clive Bruton wrote:
>
>> There seem to be about four different arguments going on here that  
>> are related, but are also logically separable:
>>
>> A: Free Lasso
>>
>> B: Open source Lasso
>>
>> C: Marketing Lasso
>>
>> D: Growing the user base
>>
>> Each one of these has sub-arguments too, I'll try to delve through  
>> them:
>>
>> Free Lasso
>> There are at least three distinct concepts here: and all free  
>> Lasso, a crippled free Lasso and a freely distributable, run-time  
>> Lasso App. The first of these, I think, necessarily means that  
>> Lasso becomes an open source application. Jim posted earlier that  
>> he thought this was unsupportable, the community base to further  
>> develop the application just isn't there. I countered this by  
>> pointing out that there are already a fairly large number of users  
>> contributing tags, etc. I think you can take either view on this  
>> and think you're right - personally, despite making the point that  
>> there is good community support, I'm not sure an open source Lasso  
>> would be the way to go.
>>
>> Perhaps a version that started to include third-party modules/tags  
>> by default would be a middle way?
>>
>> As to a crippled free version - I think this is pretty much a non-
>> starter. Firstly you're asking LassoSoft to support two separate  
>> products and secondly you're asking the user of that software to  
>> make a large number of compromises in trying to assess/use Lasso.  
>> The current developer edition seems to offer almost everything you  
>> could wish for in this environment. Maybe it doesn't offer  
>> everything that everybody would like, but it's always going to be  
>> a compromise if there's going to be a commercial application too.
>>
>> Run-time Lasso applications have been discussed here for as long  
>> as I can remember - and to my mind they offer about the best  
>> compromise you're going to get as far as having a commercial  
>> server application and being able to distribute free/low cost  
>> applications. I see that there are lost of people on this list  
>> that have at various times struggled to build a business model on  
>> Lasso solutions - at least some of them would be well served by this.
>>
>> But, we don't know (or at least I don't) whether LassoSoft is  
>> considering this as a possibility or not (if someone could comment  
>> as to whether this was mentioned at the summit?).
>>
>
> From what I've gathered they are well aware of the desire from some  
> to make a run-time version of Lasso.  The products I've built using  
> Lasso wouldn't benefit from this since we sell our apps with  
> hosting bundled in (as well as configuring, setting up and  
> maintiance).  But a few, Landman comes to mind, have products that  
> would benefit from this... Am I dreaming or was this mentioned as  
> being part of LP9??
>
>> Open source Lasso
>> The fundamental question here is: will an open source Lasso  
>> suddenly grow the market for Lasso and serve the entire user base  
>> any better than now? And, even if it does, will the application  
>> continue to be developed?
>>
>> If Lasso was made free and open source tomorrow, is it likely that  
>> it will achieve the dominance PHP has right now? I think the  
>> answer to that is no. If it ever could reach that scale it's  
>> something that's going to take a number of years, I think probably  
>> more than five. So, this route is not going to be an overnight  
>> solution. There's also a fair chance that such a move wouldn't  
>> make any difference to Lasso's market share and that the  
>> application itself would not be developed sufficiently in the  
>> future to stay up with the rest of the pack.
>
> Open source is good in many respects, but I think in the case of  
> Lasso Kyle, Fletcher & etc. have a solid grasp on where to take  
> Lasso.  From what I gleaned of LP9 from the summit it will take the  
> things Lasso does well and do them even better, and overcome  
> several of Lasso's short comings.  I believe we are best served by  
> having a small group of developers who know the product inside and  
> out and are focused on taking the product in the right direction.  
> While I think this community could offer a lot in an open source  
> product... I'm concerned that the waters would get muddied with  
> little or no benefit over doing more of what had continued to make  
> Lasso great.
>
> From what I can tell LassoSoft's main source of income is selling  
> Lasso products, but open sourcing Lasso would basicly kill that...  
> so a whole new business module would have to be developed.  I  
> question if LassoSoft would be viable only selling support or etc.  
> If Kyle, Fletcher & etc. couldn't make enough money to work full  
> time developing and supporting Lasso; there wouldn't likely be much  
> left for Lasso.  Its a gamble I hope they don't make ATM.
>
> On as side note I don't recall making Lasso Open Source part of the  
> Open Letter to LassoSoft thread, but maybe I just overlooked it.
>
>> Marketing Lasso
>> This is a tough one: marketing is expensive, and can be really  
>> hard to target. Probably some of the best marketing in this area  
>> comes from the graphics software vendors, who spend a great deal  
>> of time and effort making sure that their products are in use by  
>> the next generation of students coming out of art colleges. Both  
>> Quark and Adobe offer substantial reductions to students, which  
>> ends up influencing the professional market over a period of time  
>> because the skills in the marketplace a skewed towards the vendor  
>> that's doing the best marketing to students.
>>
>> From a Lasso point of view it would seem that LassoSoft has some  
>> strategy in this sector in place, but perhaps needs to directly  
>> market to schools/colleges to make sure their offering is understood.
>
> At the summit they mentioned they are developing a text book and  
> course for learning programing with Lasso.  So I believe they have  
> some solid plans in this area... we'll just have to see how well it  
> all pans out.
>
>> Growing the userbase
>> From my perspective the best way of growing the userbase is to  
>> start by targeting schools/colleges, which has a payoff in 1-5  
>> years, and by offering a run-time compiler solution. The latter of  
>> these may not seem an obvious marketing angle for Lasso, but it  
>> seems to be an approach that would be welcome in other  
>> developmental languages (ie PHP compilation), may get a few more  
>> developers on board, and may appeal to some customers. Lasso gets  
>> some mention in the process because some clients will ask how the  
>> application was developed - and may want to develop their own  
>> solutions.
>
> Well I think this is a two fold area.  Targeting students appears  
> to be a strong focus in the future of LassoSoft, but also adding  
> more functions and abilities into Lasso will best serve the base  
> users.  More goodies is what's most likely to get companies like  
> ours to upgrade to the next version.
>
>>
>> Just some thoughts
>>
>>
>> -- Clive
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
>> Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
>> Manage your list subscription: http://www.listsearch.com/ 
>> lassotalk.lasso?manage
>
>
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> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/
>


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Re: Count Distinct in lasso?

Viaduct Productions
In reply to this post by Daniel Roth-3
If this doesn't use MySQL, perform an inline, then insert results  
into a set, then count the size of the set.

HTH

Cheers


On May 7, 2007, at 11:18 PM, Daniel Roth wrote:

> Can any body clue me in where how I might be able to count distinct  
> records with lasso?



Rich in Toronto



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Re: logical separation (was Re: An Open Letter to LassoSoft!)

Mr. Bret Williams
In reply to this post by Gordon McLean
I'm also very encouraged by the Apollo project. It would be wonderful  
to be able to build desktop-esque applications with the ease and  
versatility of Lasso as the underpinnings.

On May 7, 2007, at 11:22 PM, Gordon McLean wrote:

> The future of Lasso is very much in the hands of the LassoSoft boys  
> and I guess they have a plan.  They have a strong mature product  
> and if I were in their position I would be looking very very hard  
> at Apollo, desktop versions of Lasso and perhaps another deal with  
> Filemaker.  As a developer who has spent a lot of time learning  
> Lasso I would ideally have a one stop solution that worked as a  
> desktop and web app and used the same code base!  As it is I am  
> using Lasso, JavaScript (in Servoy) ActionScript (Flash) etc etc


Bret Williams
Novusweb

www.Novusweb.com

760.942.3773 voice
866.668.8793 toll-free

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