Pricing, part II

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Pricing, part II

Jim Sheffer-3
Ok, this discussion has been enlightening to say the least :-)

I'm not sure if LassoSoft upgraded their pricing on the site, or more than likely, after spending hours reading all the posts I just have a better understanding of it!

First off, taking from another thread, Id like to thank TreeFrog for stepping in when they did.  We all know where Lassosoft was heading and this would be an entirely different conversation if the situation were different.

Second, my hat is off to all the hard work to get us where we are in such a very short time!

Third, for those reading all these posts that are new to Lasso, the problems associated with LassoSoft were mostly due to them creating a Top Notch Application from the ground up and running out of resources.  The product itself has been fantastic, both older versions as well as the new Lasso9!

Let me see if I have the pricing correct.  I know for some the pricing is hard to swallow.  I believe there are many, many Lasso users in my shoes.
We host for our development clients only, so have only a handful of clients to worry about.

We have one Lasso 8.5x server running about 12 Lasso Sites (not really even needed as they do not have access to admins).  This server also has Lasso9 running on it for later development.

We have another customer that will be adding two new Lasso 8.x machines in the near future.

Once the Lasso9 documentation is completed and I have time to delve into it, these machines will be upgraded to Lasso9.

For our main Lasso server:
1. Although the water is murky, I'm going to assume since we pre-purchased Lasso9 before the pricing changes, we will be able to run one instance of Lasso9 (As we upgrade current customers from Lasso 8.5 we will run everyone on one instance as Lasso9 is not set for "multiple sites" as Lasso 8.5 was) as a "Perpetual" license.
2. Moving forward with the two new licenses, since they will be on separate machines, we will need two licenses even though each machine will be running one instance of Lasso each.

Either we pay $49.00/ month x 2 (with 5 instances if we choose- these are the same as "lasso sites", correct?), or we pay $499.99 x 2 and have no free upgrade path.

Either way, our prices come out to be about the same as they always have been.

Am I missing something, or is this correct?
If we go with the "Master" monthly license, when we decide to upgrade these other two servers to Lasso9, there will be no additional charges, correct?

If I'm correct, there is still a "developer" version for newbies wanting to try it out, so that hasn't changed either...


James Sheffer,

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Re: Pricing, part II

Brad Lindsay-2
On Mar 19, 2011, at 1:23 PM, Jim Sheffer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> For our main Lasso server:
> 1. Although the water is murky, I'm going to assume since we pre-purchased Lasso9 before the pricing changes, we will be able to run one instance of Lasso9 (As we upgrade current customers from Lasso 8.5 we will run everyone on one instance as Lasso9 is not set for "multiple sites" as Lasso 8.5 was) as a "Perpetual" license.

Since you bought it before the changes, you should be able to run unlimited instances of Lasso 9 on that machine. We currently use our old license to run 2 Lasso 9 instances on a machine. In Lasso 9, running separate instances involves interacting more with the OS and configuration settings.


> 2. Moving forward with the two new licenses, since they will be on separate machines, we will need two licenses even though each machine will be running one instance of Lasso each.
>
> Either we pay $49.00/ month x 2 (with 5 instances if we choose- these are the same as "lasso sites", correct?), or we pay $499.99 x 2 and have no free upgrade path.
>
> Either way, our prices come out to be about the same as they always have been.
>
> Am I missing something, or is this correct?

Sounds right to me.


> If we go with the "Master" monthly license, when we decide to upgrade these other two servers to Lasso9, there will be no additional charges, correct?

Correct


> If I'm correct, there is still a "developer" version for newbies wanting to try it out, so that hasn't changed either...

Correct, with the same 5IP limitation


Brad

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Re: Pricing, part II

John May-2
On 3/19/11 3:07 PM, Brad Lindsay wrote:

> On Mar 19, 2011, at 1:23 PM, Jim Sheffer<[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> For our main Lasso server: 1. Although the water is murky, I'm
>> going to assume since we pre-purchased Lasso9 before the pricing
>> changes, we will be able to run one instance of Lasso9 (As we
>> upgrade current customers from Lasso 8.5 we will run everyone on
>> one instance as Lasso9 is not set for "multiple sites" as Lasso 8.5
>> was) as a "Perpetual" license.
>
> Since you bought it before the changes, you should be able to run
> unlimited instances of Lasso 9 on that machine. We currently use our
> old license to run 2 Lasso 9 instances on a machine. In Lasso 9,
> running separate instances involves interacting more with the OS and
> configuration settings.
>


Note that this has not been clarified by LassoSoft, AFAIK.

        - John

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Re: Pricing, part II

Bil Corry-3
In reply to this post by Jim Sheffer-3
Jim Sheffer wrote on 3/19/2011 10:23 AM:
> As we upgrade current
> customers from Lasso 8.5 we will run everyone on one instance as
> Lasso9 is not set for "multiple sites" as Lasso 8.5 was

You can run multiple Lasso 9 sites, it requires some configuration to do so though.  Maybe someone can point to the documentation for how to do so.

You can choose to run all your customer websites through a single Lasso 9 site, but note that there isn't any security then between the sites.  It's not an issue if you control all the code for all the websites, but if your customers control the code, it is an issue -- plan to have to run one Lasso 9 site per customer.


- Bil

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Re: Pricing, part II

stevepiercy
On 3/19/11 at 3:32 PM, [hidden email] (Bil Corry) pronounced:

>Jim Sheffer wrote on 3/19/2011 10:23 AM:
>>As we upgrade current
>>customers from Lasso 8.5 we will run everyone on one instance as
>>Lasso9 is not set for "multiple sites" as Lasso 8.5 was
>
>You can run multiple Lasso 9 sites, it requires some
>configuration to do so though.  Maybe someone can point to the
>documentation for how to do so.

http://www.lassosoft.com/Multiple-Lasso-9-Sites

There may be other articles in the LassoTalk archive, like Chris
Wik and his Webmin module or some manual methods.

--steve

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Re: Pricing, part II

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Jim Sheffer-3

On 19 Mar 2011, at 17:23, Jim Sheffer wrote:

> Either we pay $49.00/ month x 2 (with 5 instances if we choose-  
> these are the same as "lasso sites", correct?), or we pay $499.99 x  
> 2 and have no free upgrade path.
>
> Either way, our prices come out to be about the same as they always  
> have been.
>
> Am I missing something, or is this correct?

If you are paying $499 for a Lasso 9.x licence then you are getting a  
single instance/site licence. Which is significantly different to  
your already purchased 9.0 licence which has unlimited instances/
sites. To get that in a new licence you need to purchase the $5.999k  
licence.

So, if that's how you understand it, then that is correct.


-- Clive

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Re: Pricing, part II

Brett Harvey
>If you are paying $499 for a Lasso 9.x licence then you are getting
>a single instance/site licence. Which is significantly different to
>your already purchased 9.0 licence which has unlimited
>instances/sites. To get that in a new licence you need to purchase
>the $5.999k licence.
>
>So, if that's how you understand it, then that is correct.

Well..  I guess then I'll have to covert my clients to PHP or Cold
Fusion...  Hopefully Lassosoft understand that.

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Re: Pricing, part II

Clive Bruton

On 20 Mar 2011, at 00:30, Brett Harvey wrote:

>  I guess then I'll have to covert my clients to PHP or Cold Fusion...

How do you think your clients will feel about 10k+ re-coding costs?

It's a conundrum, isn't it? :-/


-- Clive

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Re: Pricing, part II

Rick Draper-2
In reply to this post by Brett Harvey
>If you are paying $499 for a Lasso 9.x licence then you are getting a
>single instance/site licence. Which is significantly different to your
>already purchased 9.0 licence which has unlimited instances/sites. To
>get that in a new licence you need to purchase the $5.999k licence.
>
>So, if that's how you understand it, then that is correct.

> - Brett Harvey

I have been sitting on the sideline for much of this pricing debate and have
appreciated all the insights and summaries provided.  To me, the "unlimited
instance" nature of the existing Lasso 9 licences that some of us have is an
expectation that might not be reasonable, and if the facts be known, in many
cases they would have been bought with the intention of being a single
instance on a single machine (I know mine was).  That does not take away
from the fact that we were of the understanding we could, if we wanted to,
run multiple instances on the same machine.

The issue here is that LassoSoft LLC, who sold us the licence is no longer
able to support the product we bought from them.  LassoSoft Inc. bought the
Lasso IP and while they cannot retrospectively amend the licence for the
product we bought, they can (as I read it) apply new licence conditions
associated with any updates to the product that they now publish.  Given the
investment, not just in the original IP, but all the development work since,
I don't think that is unreasonable.... it certainly has the potential to
have an impact on goodwill on the part of customers the new company has
inherited from the old, but there are undoubtedly many pragmatic decisions
to be made in that regard... licensing is just one of them.

The new pricing may be the proverbial "Dry stalk on the Dromedary" for some
long-standing Lasso users, but there are some pragmatic decisions to be made
in our businesses as well.  The most foundational of which is whether we can
generate a return on our Lasso investment under the new pricing model.  If
the answer is "no", well I guess other languages await.  If the answer is
"yes, but...", we need to get off the "butt" and see how we can best make it
work for us.

In our case, the available discounts for multiple instances being tied to a
single VM is an issue, but (without letting Sean know) the actual cost of
deploying Lasso under the new model is lower than it was before.  A new
single instance perpetual licence for 9 is CA$499.00 - that is a significant
saving on what we paid LassoSoft LLC.... yes, yes, we could have run
multiple instances before and now we can't without paying more, but in our
case, and I suspect many others, that is not an issue that we considered
when making the original purchase decision.  It becomes one going forward
and I hope that some volume 1/1 perpetual licensing, similar to the instance
model, will be forthcoming.

So to wrap it up, I think we need to hear from LassoSoft Inc. about the
impact of the new licensing model on the pre-Rhino purchased products.  Is
the goodwill available worth the effort to grandfather those licenses into
the "Unlimited" fold?  As users of Lasso, we need to decide if the "new
world order" (as outlined by Sean) is compatible with our individual
commercial realities.

Very best regards,

Rick



 



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Re: Pricing, part II

Jim Sheffer-3
In reply to this post by Bil Corry-3
Bill-

Thanks!

I know that you can run multiple instances of Lasso9, just not as easy to set up as earlier versions.

In my case, I control all the code and am the only one that utilizes the Lasso admin for the sites; that's why I was talking about just running one instance of Lasso9 as opposed to now with multiple instances.

Jim

On Mar 19, 2011, at 5:32 PM, Bil Corry wrote:

> Jim Sheffer wrote on 3/19/2011 10:23 AM:
>> As we upgrade current
>> customers from Lasso 8.5 we will run everyone on one instance as
>> Lasso9 is not set for "multiple sites" as Lasso 8.5 was
>
> You can run multiple Lasso 9 sites, it requires some configuration to do so though.  Maybe someone can point to the documentation for how to do so.
>
> You can choose to run all your customer websites through a single Lasso 9 site, but note that there isn't any security then between the sites.  It's not an issue if you control all the code for all the websites, but if your customers control the code, it is an issue -- plan to have to run one Lasso 9 site per customer.
>
>
> - Bil
>
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Re: Pricing, part II

Jim Sheffer-3
In reply to this post by Brett Harvey
True-

In my case, it may work out Ok.  I also haven't seen what LassoSoft is going to do for those that have already purchased Lasso9 - I can't imagine that they can retroactively "restrict" the license.

I'm not versed with PHP beyond being able to follow code already written but isn't PHP run along the same lines as Lasso9 with one instance anyways (I'm not aware of "multiple instances" of PHP VS. multiple Lasso Sites ( especially in "pre-Lasso9" LassoSites).

Unless I've missed it, I wasn't aware that instances = sites either.

Instal PHP, run multiple sites (one instance)
Install Lasso9 run multiple sites (one instance)

With the exception of Lasso Admin not being available for "per site" configuration (the same as running PHP normally), it would be the same.  I've always assumed that having the ability to install and run Lasso as a separate "instance") for one, or a group, of sites was a feature not found in PHP (Unless your doing something custom.  If I host a site on a server offering PHP, I don't think I'm the only one using that install of PHP...

Am I wrong?

Jim



On Mar 19, 2011, at 7:30 PM, Brett Harvey wrote:

>> If you are paying $499 for a Lasso 9.x licence then you are getting a single instance/site licence. Which is significantly different to your already purchased 9.0 licence which has unlimited instances/sites. To get that in a new licence you need to purchase the $5.999k licence.
>>
>> So, if that's how you understand it, then that is correct.
>
> Well..  I guess then I'll have to covert my clients to PHP or Cold Fusion...  Hopefully Lassosoft understand that.
>
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Re: Pricing, part II

Ke Carlton-3
In reply to this post by Jim Sheffer-3
Jim,

It's worth pointing out that namespaces not longer exist in Lasso —
they were dropped in 9 (which would have been ideal for such a
scenario). So you'll need to be particularly careful in terms of
definitions — they'll need to be manually addressed if there's
conflicting name. ie.

   define theclient_themethod => { ...their version... }

From version 5.3 PHP has had namespaces, Python has built in support
and Ruby can handle it via nested modules. So not quite like  other
platforms out there...

Ke

On 20 March 2011 12:54, Jim Sheffer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In my case, I control all the code and am the only one that utilizes the Lasso admin for the sites; that's why I was talking about just running one instance of Lasso9 as opposed to now with multiple instances.
>
> Jim

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Re: Pricing, part II

Bil Corry-3
Also note that if all customers are running under a single instance, then if one customer has a sudden spike in traffic or similar issues, it will impact all of your customers.  And having to restart Lasso for one customer means restarting Lasso for all customers (rather than just a single instance).


- Bil

Ke Carlton wrote on 3/20/2011 6:24 AM:

> Jim,
>
> It's worth pointing out that namespaces not longer exist in Lasso —
> they were dropped in 9 (which would have been ideal for such a
> scenario). So you'll need to be particularly careful in terms of
> definitions — they'll need to be manually addressed if there's
> conflicting name. ie.
>
>     define theclient_themethod =>  { ...their version... }
>
>> From version 5.3 PHP has had namespaces, Python has built in support
> and Ruby can handle it via nested modules. So not quite like  other
> platforms out there...
>
> Ke
>
> On 20 March 2011 12:54, Jim Sheffer<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>> In my case, I control all the code and am the only one that utilizes the Lasso admin for the sites; that's why I was talking about just running one instance of Lasso9 as opposed to now with multiple instances.
>>
>> Jim


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Re: Pricing, part II

Erik Vandermey - WebCentrix, Inc.
On Mar 22, 2011, at 12:50 AM, Bil Corry wrote:

> Also note that if all customers are running under a single instance, then if one customer has a sudden spike in traffic or similar issues, it will impact all of your customers.  And having to restart Lasso for one customer means restarting Lasso for all customers (rather than just a single instance).
>
>
> - Bil

Additionally, any security settings you make for one customer become the same for other customers in a single instance scenario. I certainly don't want to give everyone full access to the Lasso tagset just because one customer requests/needs it.


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Re: Pricing, part II

Brad Lindsay-2
In reply to this post by Bil Corry-3
On Mar 22, 2011, at 1:50 AM, Bil Corry wrote:

> Also note that if all customers are running under a single instance, then if one customer has a sudden spike in traffic or similar issues, it will impact all of your customers.  

This is true even if they each had separate instances. (At lest for a traffic spike. I'm assuming that similar issues would have to do with consuming resources, so it would be true for them as well.)

Brad
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Re: Pricing, part II

lasso-3
In reply to this post by Bil Corry-3
> Also note that if all customers are running under a single instance, then if one customer has a sudden spike in traffic or similar issues, it will impact all of your customers.  And having to restart Lasso for one customer means restarting Lasso for all customers (rather than just a single instance).

Does no one run lasso in HA installations?   Shocking...   We restart
servers all the time with zero negative impact on our customers.

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Re: Pricing, part II

decorior
I think the change in Lasso 9 may have made this an issue now. The first time processes are run they have to be compiled, byte-cached, etc.. Originally, I thought this would not be an issue since I would just create multiple instances to effectively run customers somewhat separate, but with the full access to all the CPU resources. But now that is not feasible.

Deco


On Mar 22, 2011, at 9:22 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

>> Also note that if all customers are running under a single instance, then if one customer has a sudden spike in traffic or similar issues, it will impact all of your customers.  And having to restart Lasso for one customer means restarting Lasso for all customers (rather than just a single instance).
>
> Does no one run lasso in HA installations?   Shocking...   We restart
> servers all the time with zero negative impact on our customers.
>
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Re: Pricing, part II

Mark Palmer
Excuse my ignorance but what is meant by the term HA installations.

On 22 Mar 2011, at 15:28, Deco Rior wrote:

>> Does no one run lasso in HA installations?



Regards

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Re: Pricing, part II

decorior
High Availability

On Mar 22, 2011, at 9:32 AM, Mark Palmer wrote:

> Excuse my ignorance but what is meant by the term HA installations.
>
> On 22 Mar 2011, at 15:28, Deco Rior wrote:
>
>>> Does no one run lasso in HA installations?
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Mark Palmer
> E: [hidden email]
> T: 01902 620500
> W: www.pageworks.co.uk
>
>
>
>
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Deco Rior
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TennisSource.Net
software to power your tennis facility


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Re: Pricing, part II

Alex Pilson-2
In reply to this post by lasso-3
We run HA at Anu.net with load balancing 4 servers total. 5 domains  
soon to be 6.

Alex


On Mar 22, 2011, at 11:22 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

>> Also note that if all customers are running under a single  
>> instance, then if one customer has a sudden spike in traffic or  
>> similar issues, it will impact all of your customers.  And having  
>> to restart Lasso for one customer means restarting Lasso for all  
>> customers (rather than just a single instance).
>
> Does no one run lasso in HA installations?   Shocking...   We restart
> servers all the time with zero negative impact on our customers.
>
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