PHP: a fractal of bad design

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PHP: a fractal of bad design

Steve Upton

This post is about a year old but it's interesting reading. It's LONG too. A good indicator of the number of flaws in PHP.

The grass is certainly not greener over that particular fence.

(forgive me if this has been mentioned before)

<http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/>

enjoy,

Steve Upton



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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Brad Lindsay
Along the same lines, but for a popular database:

http://grimoire.ca/mysql/choose-something-else

Brad


On 4/17/13 4:05 PM, Steve Upton wrote:

> This post is about a year old but it's interesting reading. It's LONG too. A good indicator of the number of flaws in PHP.
>
> The grass is certainly not greener over that particular fence.
>
> (forgive me if this has been mentioned before)
>
> <http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/>
>
> enjoy,
>
> Steve Upton
>
>
>
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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Jonathan Guthrie-3
LOL: "If that article offends you, well, this page probably will too"
Nice :)

On 2013-04-17, at 4:21 PM, Brad Lindsay <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Along the same lines, but for a popular database:
>
> http://grimoire.ca/mysql/choose-something-else

Jono

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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Trevor Borgmeier
In reply to this post by Steve Upton
I almost posted the following link to lassotalk a week or two ago...

http://philsturgeon.co.uk/blog/2013/01/php-6-pissing-in-the-wind

It's the first result I get when I google "PHP 6" (without quotes)

-Trevor



on 4/17/13 3:05 PM Steve Upton wrote:

> This post is about a year old but it's interesting reading. It's LONG too. A good indicator of the number of flaws in PHP.
>
> The grass is certainly not greener over that particular fence.
>
> (forgive me if this has been mentioned before)
>
> <http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/>
>
> enjoy,
>
> Steve Upton
>
>
>
> #############################################################
>
> Attend the Lasso Developer Conference 2013!
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ɹǝıǝɯƃɹoq ɹoʌǝɹʇ


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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Randy Phillips-2
In reply to this post by Steve Upton
You just know it's going to be an object review when it starts out by
making the claim that "Virtually every feature in PHP is broken somehow."
Lol. Ok.

Meanwhile: http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all


On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Steve Upton <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> This post is about a year old but it's interesting reading. It's LONG too.
> A good indicator of the number of flaws in PHP.
>
> The grass is certainly not greener over that particular fence.
>
> (forgive me if this has been mentioned before)
>
> <http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/>
>
> enjoy,
>
> Steve Upton
>
>
>
> #############################################################
>
> Attend the Lasso Developer Conference 2013!
> Sept 12-14, 2013 in Niagara Falls, Canada
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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Jonathan Guthrie-3
On 2013-04-17, at 6:21 PM, Randy Phillips <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You just know it's going to be an object review when it starts out by
> making the claim that "Virtually every feature in PHP is broken somehow."
> Lol. Ok.

It was an interesting dissection though, regardless of prejudice :)

> Meanwhile: http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all

A very transparent point, and yes undoubtably popular. But I also saw an interesting stat recently about actual meaningful usage that showed that if you subtract WP sites and "contact us" scripts, the picture is very different.

MacDonalds is "everywhere" but how many choose to eat there (let alone will admit to eating MacD's)


Jono

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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Trevor Borgmeier

on 4/17/13 8:03 PM Jonathan Guthrie wrote:
> On 2013-04-17, at 6:21 PM, Randy Phillips <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> You just know it's going to be an object review when it starts out by
>> making the claim that "Virtually every feature in PHP is broken somehow."
>> Lol. Ok.
> It was an interesting dissection though, regardless of prejudice :)
>> Meanwhile: http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all
> A very transparent point, and yes undoubtably popular. But I also saw an interesting stat recently about actual meaningful usage that showed that if you subtract WP sites and "contact us" scripts, the picture is very different.
Do you have a link/reference to this stat?  I'm curious to see it...
>
> MacDonalds is "everywhere" but how many choose to eat there (let alone will admit to eating MacD's)
very true...

>
> Jono
>
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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Jonathan Guthrie-3
On 2013-04-17, at 9:15 PM, Trevor Borgmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> A very transparent point, and yes undoubtably popular. But I also saw an interesting stat recently about actual meaningful usage that showed that if you subtract WP sites and "contact us" scripts, the picture is very different.
> Do you have a link/reference to this stat?  I'm curious to see it...

WIll attempt to chase it down. It was linked from one of the news aggregators I frequent.

>> MacDonalds is "everywhere" but how many choose to eat there (let alone will admit to eating MacD's)
> very true...

:)


Jono

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PHP: a fractal of bad design

Randy Phillips-2
But you can't just ignore WP to skew the numbers towards other platforms.
The fact is blogs are in widespread use today and PHP captured that CMS
niche. No other platform did. It begs the question, if PHP is so broken and
poorly designed why do very smart people keep building sophisticated stuff with
it year over year?


On Wednesday, April 17, 2013, Jonathan Guthrie wrote:

> On 2013-04-17, at 6:21 PM, Randy Phillips <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > You just know it's going to be an object review when it starts out by
> > making the claim that "Virtually every feature in PHP is broken somehow."
> > Lol. Ok.
>
> It was an interesting dissection though, regardless of prejudice :)
>
> > Meanwhile:
> http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all
>
> A very transparent point, and yes undoubtably popular. But I also saw an
> interesting stat recently about actual meaningful usage that showed that if
> you subtract WP sites and "contact us" scripts, the picture is very
> different.
>
> MacDonalds is "everywhere" but how many choose to eat there (let alone
> will admit to eating MacD's)
>
>
> Jono
>
> ----------------------------
> Jonathan Guthrie
> [hidden email]
> @iamjono
> LassoSoft Inc.
> AIM Chatroom: lassochat
> IRC/freenode #lasso
>
>
> #############################################################
>
> Attend the Lasso Developer Conference 2013!
> Sept 12-14, 2013 in Niagara Falls, Canada
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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Jolle Carlestam-3
18 apr 2013 kl. 15:18 skrev Randy Phillips <[hidden email]>:

> It begs the question, if PHP is so broken and
> poorly designed why do very smart people keep building sophisticated stuff with
> it year over year?

That is never a relevant question. People do stuff for all kinds of reasons that are not the best choice or the informed decision.

Why do so many millions smoke? Drink too much? Have sex with their neighbor? Use Windows? Enter the highway at peak hours? Because it's the smartest thing to do? I think not.

The trick is to, in every situation, make a sober analysis. What is best for me in this situation given the choices I have?
The answer could be to use PHP. For example for the reason; my neighbor uses it and I can ask her for help. (After the sex of course.) But if not, then another platform is probably a better decision.
If you choose PHP for the only reason that everybody else does then I suggest you go eat shit. After all, 400 billion flies and maggots do. It must be good.

HDB
Jolle

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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Mark Palmer
In reply to this post by Randy Phillips-2
Because it's what they know, and they know it because it's what they started out with and they started out with it because it was free.

Maybe.


On 18 Apr 2013, at 14:18, Randy Phillips <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It begs the question, if PHP is so broken and
> poorly designed why do very smart people keep building sophisticated stuff with
> it year over year?



Regards

Mark Palmer
E: [hidden email]
T: +44 1902 620500
T: +44 1285 610035
W: www.pageworks.co.uk






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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Jolle Carlestam-3
In reply to this post by Jolle Carlestam-3
18 apr 2013 kl. 15:30 skrev Jolle Carlestam <[hidden email]>:

> If you choose PHP for the only reason that everybody else does then I suggest you go eat shit. After all, 400 billion flies and maggots do. It must be good.

Today sure is the day of fast fingers and slow brain. Leading to unwanted and unwarranted insults.
No, I am not suggesting that you, Randy, or anyone, go eat manure. Nor am I trying to insult you.
For the possibility of that I apologize.

I am merely trying to convey the point that the choice of a majority not necessarily has to be the best choice for you. PHP is popular because PHP is popular. It's a self driven move and has nothing to do with the potential quality of the product.
It's like picking the best toothpaste. In order to find the one type that suits your needs best you have to be very informed. Most people aren't. So they go for other criteria that has nothing to do with mouth or teeth. Cheapest, most beautiful package, closest in the shelf, latest commercial etc. None of those reasons will give them the guaranteed best toothpaste.

There, that should not insult anyone should it?

HDB
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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Jonathan Guthrie-3
On 2013-04-18, at 9:52 AM, Jolle Carlestam <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There, that should not insult anyone should it?

The problem with this sort of thread is that someone's always going to come out feeling abused.
Thanks Jolle for being man enough to recognize where your words may have unintended consequences :)

On that note, lets keep this thread objective.
It's really valuable to have this conversation, but not degenerate into cheap shots :)

Thanks!

Jono

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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Brad Lindsay
In reply to this post by Randy Phillips-2
On 4/18/13 9:18 AM, Randy Phillips wrote:
> But you can't just ignore WP to skew the numbers towards other platforms.

I think that, in this instance, counting WP is skewing the numbers. It's
an outlier - and this might be shown by looking at the numbers without it.

On top of that, I know programmers who don't like PHP, but have
WordPress blogs. I know people who aren't programmers at all, but have
WordPress blogs.

If the goal is to determine language popularity, it's probably a good
idea to look at what programmers themselves actually use when they
program. However, as has been pointed out by Jono and Jolle - popularity
does not necessarily correlate to quality or suitability.


Brad

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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Jonathan Guthrie-3
On 2013-04-18, at 10:06 AM, Brad Lindsay <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If the goal is to determine language popularity, it's probably a good idea to look at what programmers themselves actually use when they program. However, as has been pointed out by Jono and Jolle - popularity does not necessarily correlate to quality or suitability.

I'd also like to say that as developers we should be using the best tool for the job at hand.
While these days Lasso 9 is my tool of choice, I also routinely use Python, Bash, C, JS (both clientside and with node.js), and Lasso 8.
I also have been known to use PHP :)

And no I don't have a WP blog.
That's written in Lasso 9 (http://jono.guthrie.net.nz) :)

Jono

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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Jolle Carlestam-3
18 apr 2013 kl. 16:17 skrev Jonathan Guthrie <[hidden email]>:

> I'd also like to say that as developers we should be using the best tool for the job at hand.

That is why we as being informed and always aiming for quality choose Lasso 9. Every time.

Want to dig a ditch? Use Lasso 9.
Do the dishes? Use Lasso 9.
Brush your teeth? Use toothbrush and toothpaste! Of course! Are you stupid or what?

HDB
Jolle

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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Randy Phillips-2
In reply to this post by Jonathan Guthrie-3
No offense taken here. I'm not that passionate about PHP. It's just that I
have been hearing about how awful it is for years (mainly in the Lasso
community) so I avoided it. I even parroted the criticism. Then I actually
tried it on a major project. All I can say is the grave reviews do not
match my personal experience. Results may vary.


On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Jonathan Guthrie <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 2013-04-18, at 9:52 AM, Jolle Carlestam <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > There, that should not insult anyone should it?
>
> The problem with this sort of thread is that someone's always going to
> come out feeling abused.
> Thanks Jolle for being man enough to recognize where your words may have
> unintended consequences :)
>
> On that note, lets keep this thread objective.
> It's really valuable to have this conversation, but not degenerate into
> cheap shots :)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jono
>
> ----------------------------
> Jonathan Guthrie
> [hidden email]
> @iamjono
> LassoSoft Inc.
> AIM Chatroom: lassochat
> IRC/freenode #lasso
>
>
> #############################################################
>
> Attend the Lasso Developer Conference 2013!
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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Pier Kuipers
In reply to this post by Jonathan Guthrie-3
On 18 April 2013 15:17, Jonathan Guthrie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I also have been known to use PHP :)
>

"Friends should not let friends do PHP".

:-p

Pier


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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Jonathan Guthrie-3

On 2013-04-18, at 7:52 PM, Pier Kuipers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 18 April 2013 15:17, Jonathan Guthrie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I also have been known to use PHP :)
>>
>
> "Friends should not let friends do PHP".
>
> :-p
>
> Pier

Actually my t-shirt says "friends don't let friends do php"

Semantics :)


Jono

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Re: PHP: a fractal of bad design

Brad Lindsay
On 4/18/13 8:40 PM, Jonathan Guthrie wrote:

> On 2013-04-18, at 7:52 PM, Pier Kuipers<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> On 18 April 2013 15:17, Jonathan Guthrie<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>>> I also have been known to use PHP :)
>>>
>> "Friends should not let friends do PHP".
>>
>> :-p
>>
>> Pier
>
> Actually my t-shirt says "friends don't let friends do php"
>
> Semantics :)

Of course the t-shirt's version, though, is a play off the famous
"Friend's don't let friends drive drunk" commercial, so semantics might
matter in this case.

Brad

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