On Lasso Pricing

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On Lasso Pricing

Sean Stephens-2

"As we enter the final lap of getting new versions of Lasso live, we have also started tightening up a new pricing metaphor, and thought it would be consistent with LassoSoft's values to share the metaphor with the community and get some feedback before we officially pull the trigger and start selling."

For more, go here: http://transparency.lassosoft.com/Pricing-March-2011

Sean Stephens
CEO
LassoSoft Inc.


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Re: On Lasso Pricing

Daniel Parker

On 11/03/2011, at 9:58 AM, Sean Stephens wrote:

>
> "As we enter the final lap of getting new versions of Lasso live, we have also started tightening up a new pricing metaphor, and thought it would be consistent with LassoSoft's values to share the metaphor with the community and get some feedback before we officially pull the trigger and start selling."
>
> For more, go here: http://transparency.lassosoft.com/Pricing-March-2011

Conceptually, I don't see any issues with any of these models.. but in reality, it is very hard to comment before seeing the pricing of each model.

If even an indicative pricing range was attached to each item in the document, then the 'pros and cons' of each could be weighed up.

Regards
Daniel Parker
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Re: On Lasso Pricing

Marc Pinnell-3
+1


On Mar 10, 2011, at 1:49 PM, Daniel Parker wrote:

>
> On 11/03/2011, at 9:58 AM, Sean Stephens wrote:
>
>>
>> "As we enter the final lap of getting new versions of Lasso live, we have also started tightening up a new pricing metaphor, and thought it would be consistent with LassoSoft's values to share the metaphor with the community and get some feedback before we officially pull the trigger and start selling."
>>
>> For more, go here: http://transparency.lassosoft.com/Pricing-March-2011
>
> Conceptually, I don't see any issues with any of these models.. but in reality, it is very hard to comment before seeing the pricing of each model.
>
> If even an indicative pricing range was attached to each item in the document, then the 'pros and cons' of each could be weighed up.
>
> Regards
> Daniel Parker
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Marc Pinnell
1027 Design
PO Box 990872
Redding, CA 96099-0872
530.941.4706
fax: 866.232.5300
www.1027Design.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/SoccerGuy3



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Re: On Lasso Pricing

Marc Pope-2
In reply to this post by Sean Stephens-2
I welcome the new models, ive been asking for leased licenses for eons

Excited to see pricing

On Mar 10, 2011, at 3:58 PM, Sean Stephens <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> "As we enter the final lap of getting new versions of Lasso live, we have also started tightening up a new pricing metaphor, and thought it would be consistent with LassoSoft's values to share the metaphor with the community and get some feedback before we officially pull the trigger and start selling."
>
> For more, go here: http://transparency.lassosoft.com/Pricing-March-2011
>
> Sean Stephens
> CEO
> LassoSoft Inc.
>
>
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Re: On Lasso Pricing

John May-2
In reply to this post by Sean Stephens-2
On 3/10/11 3:58 PM, Sean Stephens wrote:

>
> "As we enter the final lap of getting new versions of Lasso live, we
> have also started tightening up a new pricing metaphor, and thought
> it would be consistent with LassoSoft's values to share the metaphor
> with the community and get some feedback before we officially pull
> the trigger and start selling."
>
> For more, go here:
> http://transparency.lassosoft.com/Pricing-March-2011
>
> Sean Stephens CEO LassoSoft Inc.
>


I really hope that 8.6 isn't going to introduce an all new licensing
scheme, especially a "per instance" one.

If the "per instance" pricing is going to end up making it considerably
more expensive to license Lasso for each of our shared servers, we will
be seriously reevaluating our support of it going forward.

I personally hate time-limited licenses, per-seat licenses, etc. and we
have historically avoided offering products that insist on using this
model.  They create way too much of a management headache.

        - John

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Re: On Lasso Pricing

French, Shelane
In reply to this post by Sean Stephens-2
We are just not allowed to have things that require that they "phone home"
due to firewall restrictions. So that option would not be viable for us.


On 3/10/11 12:58 PM, "Sean Stephens" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> "As we enter the final lap of getting new versions of Lasso live, we have also
> started tightening up a new pricing metaphor, and thought it would be
> consistent with LassoSoft's values to share the metaphor with the community
> and get some feedback before we officially pull the trigger and start
> selling."
>
> For more, go here: http://transparency.lassosoft.com/Pricing-March-2011
>
> Sean Stephens
> CEO
> LassoSoft Inc.
>
>
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Re: On Lasso Pricing

Daniel Parker
In reply to this post by Sean Stephens-2

On 11/03/2011, at 9:58 AM, Sean Stephens wrote:

>
> "As we enter the final lap of getting new versions of Lasso live, we have also started tightening up a new pricing metaphor, and thought it would be consistent with LassoSoft's values to share the metaphor with the community and get some feedback before we officially pull the trigger and start selling."

Ah.. I have thought of something else..

With the subscription models, what happens if the licensing server is unavailable (for any reason).. We know now what almost happened to the 'Old' LassoSoft, and while I'm not suggesting for a second that it could happen to the new one, I need to know that any solution will keep running in its current state in the event of natural / financial disaster.

Regards
Daniel Parker
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Re: On Lasso Pricing

Lars A. Gundersen-2
In reply to this post by Sean Stephens-2
This is exciting, and i think the model that you sketch is a step in the right direction.

Your lead-in is interesting:

"I'll re-iterate, it would be nice if Lasso were free. Unfortunately, components for an alternative business model (i.e. selling IDEs and the like) are not yet in existence. For the Lasso machine to continue and grow, it needs to make money until we get there."

It's an acknowledgment that you compete against free, and that in a perfect businessworld, the core Lassomodule would be free. Well, that's my interpretation, anyway.

I argued for exactly that, and for an investor that could bear the financial burden of making Lasso free immediately, and bearing the cost of that while building volume and other sources of revenue (add-ons, IDEs, support etc) to be realized further down the road, in this post:
http://lasso.2283332.n4.nabble.com/What-I-hope-Lassosoft-is-doing-right-now-tc3156583.html
from back in October. I was closer to the mark than I could hope for on the talking-to-investors part, but there's apparently not going to be a free Lasso, at least not for a good while.

The main problem I therefore see with this strategy is that it doesn't adequately address the issue of adopion growth rate. In other words, If you're a new web dev, looking at the options, why choose Lasso?
Free beats reasonably priced when you're starting out, that's just the way it is. As long as it is not possible to deploy even a single low traffic website with Lasso for free, Lasso is not going to be adpoted by the number of new devs needed for things to take off.

Now, it is possible that you indeed plan to make such an option available under the new structure, but since there was no concrete pricing info, and given the above quote, it seems not.

Lars

On 10. mars 2011, at 21.58, Sean Stephens wrote:

> "As we enter the final lap of getting new versions of Lasso live, we have also started tightening up a new pricing metaphor, and thought it would be consistent with LassoSoft's values to share the metaphor with the community and get some feedback before we officially pull the trigger and start selling."
>
> For more, go here: http://transparency.lassosoft.com/Pricing-March-2011
>
> Sean Stephens
> CEO
> LassoSoft Inc.

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Re: On Lasso Pricing

Marc Pope-2
In reply to this post by John May-2
On Mar 10, 2011, at 5:43 PM, John May wrote:

> I personally hate time-limited licenses, per-seat licenses, etc. and we have historically avoided offering products that insist on using this model.  They create way too much of a management headache.

I have argued for this model because it makes the cost easy to determine for hosting and if a customer leaves after 3 months, or it's a temporary site, they don't want to bear the cost of a full license. It makes the options way more flexible.

The standard license type is still going to be available.

I do agree with Daniel about that a licensing server should be solid, maybe hosted in a cloud environment, like Amazon.

-Marc


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Re: On Lasso Pricing

John May-2
On 3/10/11 6:23 PM, Marc Pope wrote:

> On Mar 10, 2011, at 5:43 PM, John May wrote:
>
>> I personally hate time-limited licenses, per-seat licenses, etc.
>> and we have historically avoided offering products that insist on
>> using this model.  They create way too much of a management
>> headache.
>
> I have argued for this model because it makes the cost easy to
> determine for hosting and if a customer leaves after 3 months, or
> it's a temporary site, they don't want to bear the cost of a full
> license. It makes the options way more flexible.
>
> The standard license type is still going to be available.
>
> I do agree with Daniel about that a licensing server should be solid,
> maybe hosted in a cloud environment, like Amazon.
>
> -Marc
>


The current license type will not be available, though.  Instead, it's
going to be changed to a "per instance" instead of "per server" license.
  This will be a mess in a shared hosting environment.

For dedicated hosting environments, sure, "rental" licenses may be a
good thing.  I don't think they're going to greatly increase Lasso's
adoption, though.

The implications of a licensing server are serious.  I personally would
never want one of my server's functionality dependent on some 3rd party
server.

Honestly, this seems all too complicated at a time when simplicity is
sorely lacking with Lasso - which was its original selling point.

        - John

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Re: On Lasso Pricing

jasonhuck
> The implications of a licensing server are serious.  I personally would
> never want one of my server's functionality dependent on some 3rd party
> server.

All other considerations aside, that makes this option a non-starter.
Historically, uptime has simply not been one of Lasso's strong suits.


> Honestly, this seems all too complicated at a time when simplicity is sorely
> lacking with Lasso - which was its original selling point.

It seems like a lot of thought was put into trying to provide flexible
licensing options with "something for everybody", but without actual
pricing to put it all into perspective, it's hard to guess which
options will be the most appealing to customers.

I've been expecting 8.6 to be a "regular" upgrade, and so far that
still sounds like the best option for us.

- jason

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Re: On Lasso Pricing

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by John May-2

On 11 Mar 2011, at 01:39, John May wrote:

> The implications of a licensing server are serious.  I personally  
> would never want one of my server's functionality dependent on some  
> 3rd party server.

I've only one real experience of this type of environment, and that  
ended (very) badly. I was using an app that didn't require a licence  
server, then is got upgraded... and suddenly it did need one. I  
bought the upgrade before I realised this, but never installed it  
because I just didn't want to be put in that situation. A few years  
later the vendor essentially shuts up shop by offering a "migration"  
route to another vendor's application. The other vendor then shut  
down the licence server after a relatively short period (buy our  
stuff or have nothing).

My old (ancient) version of the app still works and does what I need...

Another comment on this... seems like a lot of options, and lots of  
options most often leads to confusion, rather than clarity.

I appreciate that this is a difficult thing to work out, but if the  
end goal is to offer Lasso as a free distribution, then I think  
LassoSoft needs to bite the bullet and just do that. If that isn't  
the end goal, then LassoSoft should end the speculation over that  
particular issue - it only seems to muddy the waters. I can see that  
Sean has partially addressed that issue, by indicating that LassoSoft  
still needs a revenue stream (so it can't give it away, but the  
underlying issue remains, is that the ultimate aim?). But at the same  
time I think he has also said that Treefrog has the money to run  
LassoSoft forever with no income...

 From a development point of view it would seem that adding a fairly  
complex licencing model to the application would lead to a fair  
amount of effort that may ultimately be better spent elsewhere (if vX.
0 is going to be a giveaway).

Confusion abounds... but at least we can discuss it.


-- Clive

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Re: On Lasso Pricing

Marc Pope-2
I agree with both John M and Clive on the points.

I have been running Interworx Control Panel (and Plesk) and both report back to the license server at least once a month or more with an expiration date. With Plesk, you can upload a license key that also works that doesn't need a internet lookup. With so many things connected these days, I don't really view it as a problem as long as their are some fail-safes in place and LS has at least 2 different activation servers in 2 separate locations. Maybe all of us hosting providers can donate a licensing server and it can be DNS load balanced over multiple locations.

For Lasso 8, I feel that it should not change the license model at all. That's too much to deal with right now and none of it has been tested that I know of.

Going Forward with Lasso 9, I feel that the versions give a lot of variety and I think it's a good model. I want to see LassoSoft succeed and get recurring revenue and this is definitely a good way to achieve it. I don't have a problem charging for instances as long as the cost is reasonable, and i mean very reasonable.

-Marc







On Mar 10, 2011, at 9:13 PM, Clive Bruton wrote:

>
> On 11 Mar 2011, at 01:39, John May wrote:
>
>> The implications of a licensing server are serious.  I personally would never want one of my server's functionality dependent on some 3rd party server.
>
> I've only one real experience of this type of environment, and that ended (very) badly. I was using an app that didn't require a licence server, then is got upgraded... and suddenly it did need one. I bought the upgrade before I realised this, but never installed it because I just didn't want to be put in that situation. A few years later the vendor essentially shuts up shop by offering a "migration" route to another vendor's application. The other vendor then shut down the licence server after a relatively short period (buy our stuff or have nothing).
>
> My old (ancient) version of the app still works and does what I need...
>
> Another comment on this... seems like a lot of options, and lots of options most often leads to confusion, rather than clarity.
>
> I appreciate that this is a difficult thing to work out, but if the end goal is to offer Lasso as a free distribution, then I think LassoSoft needs to bite the bullet and just do that. If that isn't the end goal, then LassoSoft should end the speculation over that particular issue - it only seems to muddy the waters. I can see that Sean has partially addressed that issue, by indicating that LassoSoft still needs a revenue stream (so it can't give it away, but the underlying issue remains, is that the ultimate aim?). But at the same time I think he has also said that Treefrog has the money to run LassoSoft forever with no income...
>
> From a development point of view it would seem that adding a fairly complex licencing model to the application would lead to a fair amount of effort that may ultimately be better spent elsewhere (if vX.0 is going to be a giveaway).
>
> Confusion abounds... but at least we can discuss it.
>
>
> -- Clive
>
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Re: On Lasso Pricing

Kerry Adams-2
In reply to this post by John May-2
Hi John,

Thanks for the feedback and comments.  In Sean's post, I read this:


"Perpetual Licences

We will also be offering the same perpetual licences as before. Buy it up front, and amortize it at
your leisure."


...to mean that the current license types *will* still be available.  And during our internal
discussions, it has been our plan to continue offering the 'old type' of licenses for those who
want/need/prefer them.

Does his post read differently to you?

We definitely want to make sure that things are clear, and avoid a messy or confusing pricing
structure.  I hope that once the new site is released, with the actual pricing and details, it will
become more clear.

Cheers,

Kerry

------------------------------------------------


On 3/11/2011 2:39 AM, John May wrote:
> The current license type will not be available, though.



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Re: On Lasso Pricing

Marc Vos
In reply to this post by French, Shelane
Good point - I am in the same situation, unless phoning home is done over port 80 via http.

- -
Marc Vos


On 10 mrt 2011, at 23:48, French, Shelane wrote:

> We are just not allowed to have things that require that they "phone home"
> due to firewall restrictions. So that option would not be viable for us.
>
>
> On 3/10/11 12:58 PM, "Sean Stephens" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> "As we enter the final lap of getting new versions of Lasso live, we have also
>> started tightening up a new pricing metaphor, and thought it would be
>> consistent with LassoSoft's values to share the metaphor with the community
>> and get some feedback before we officially pull the trigger and start
>> selling."
>>
>> For more, go here: http://transparency.lassosoft.com/Pricing-March-2011
>>
>> Sean Stephens
>> CEO
>> LassoSoft Inc.
>>
>>
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Re: On Lasso Pricing

Bil Corry-3
In reply to this post by Kerry Adams-2
For the perpetual license, will the "pricing strata" offer an unlimited instance version?  And will it cost about the same as it does today?   I think that was John's concern, that an unlimited version wouldn't be available, or that it would be significantly more expensive than it is today.

- Bil


Kerry Adams wrote on 3/10/2011 11:59 PM:

> Hi John,
>
> Thanks for the feedback and comments. In Sean's post, I read this:
>
>
> "Perpetual Licences
>
> We will also be offering the same perpetual licences as before. Buy it up front, and amortize it at your leisure."
>
>
> ...to mean that the current license types *will* still be available. And during our internal discussions, it has been our plan to continue offering the 'old type' of licenses for those who want/need/prefer them.
>
> Does his post read differently to you?
>
> We definitely want to make sure that things are clear, and avoid a messy or confusing pricing structure. I hope that once the new site is released, with the actual pricing and details, it will become more clear.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kerry
>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
>
> On 3/11/2011 2:39 AM, John May wrote:
>> The current license type will not be available, though.
>

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Re: On Lasso Pricing

John May-2
Exactly.  The blog post implies that the current license type will *not*
be available, instead changing to a per-instance model:

"However, these licences will now have pricing strata, depending on how
many instances you need running on your OS."

To drop this on 8.x users is a bad idea, IMHO, as it will just
discourage upgrading.  Not to mention the implementation being a source
for all new bugs.

        - John


On 3/11/11 4:00 AM, Bil Corry wrote:

> For the perpetual license, will the "pricing strata" offer an unlimited
> instance version? And will it cost about the same as it does today? I
> think that was John's concern, that an unlimited version wouldn't be
> available, or that it would be significantly more expensive than it is
> today.
>
> - Bil
>
>
> Kerry Adams wrote on 3/10/2011 11:59 PM:
>> Hi John,
>>
>> Thanks for the feedback and comments. In Sean's post, I read this:
>>
>>
>> "Perpetual Licences
>>
>> We will also be offering the same perpetual licences as before. Buy it
>> up front, and amortize it at your leisure."
>>
>>
>> ...to mean that the current license types *will* still be available.
>> And during our internal discussions, it has been our plan to continue
>> offering the 'old type' of licenses for those who want/need/prefer them.
>>
>> Does his post read differently to you?
>>
>> We definitely want to make sure that things are clear, and avoid a
>> messy or confusing pricing structure. I hope that once the new site is
>> released, with the actual pricing and details, it will become more clear.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Kerry
>>


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Re: On Lasso Pricing

John May-2
In reply to this post by Marc Pope-2
> Going Forward with Lasso 9, I feel that the versions give a lot of
> variety and I think it's a good model. I want to see LassoSoft
> succeed and get recurring revenue and this is definitely a good way
> to achieve it. I don't have a problem charging for instances as long
> as the cost is reasonable, and i mean very reasonable.
>
> -Marc
>


If Lasso 9's going to be charged for on a per-instance model, then
LassoSoft needs to put secure multi-site features back into the product.
  It would be absolutely unfair to charge per-instance, then go on to
make server admins "roll their own" multi-site features like the current
release requires.

        - John

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Re: On Lasso Pricing

Marc Pope-2
+10000000

On Mar 11, 2011, at 7:57 AM, John May wrote:

>
> If Lasso 9's going to be charged for on a per-instance model, then LassoSoft needs to put secure multi-site features back into the product.  It would be absolutely unfair to charge per-instance, then go on to make server admins "roll their own" multi-site features like the current release requires.
>
> - John


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Re: On Lasso Pricing

Black Night Lists
In reply to this post by John May-2

On 11 Mar 2011, at 12:57, John May wrote:

> If Lasso 9's going to be charged for on a per-instance model, then LassoSoft needs to put secure multi-site features back into the product.  It would be absolutely unfair to charge per-instance, then go on to make server admins "roll their own" multi-site features like the current release requires.


Agreed

Regards

Stephen Thirlwell
Black Night Software
Lasso Hosting and Development
http://www.ukmachosting.com








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