[OT] bounce mystery

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[OT] bounce mystery

Jono-2
Hi all

I am having problems with bounce handling...

Return-Path: [hidden email]
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Lasso Professional 8.5.1
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 01:16:44 +1300
To: [hidden email]
From: [hidden email]

if "[hidden email]" does not actually exist, it *should*  
bounce to [hidden email] but instead the MTA (exim)  
bounces to [hidden email].

I am adding the Return-Path using:
                                                                        -ExtraMIMEHeaders=(array(
                                                                                'Return-Path'='[hidden email]',
                                                                                ))

Everything I have read (so far) says that if there's a return-path  
header there it should bounce to there NOT the from.

Am I going crazy? What am I missing!


Jono

// ---------------------------------------------------------
/*
     Jonathan Guthrie
     xServe Ltd, Wellington NZ
     [hidden email]   |   http://xserve.co.nz
     DDI +64 4 978 7388   |   Mob +64 21 678890

*/
// ---------------------------------------------------------




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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

JP-14
Most mail programs I know do not always use the return path whether  
it exists or not.   Often times, I've seen list servs set the "reply-
to" field to the desired address -- not the "return-path"    This  
reply-to can be different from the From one.

Have you tried that?

jp


On Dec 20, 2006, at 6:29 AM, Jono wrote:

> Hi all
>
> I am having problems with bounce handling...
>
> Return-Path: [hidden email]
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> X-Mailer: Lasso Professional 8.5.1
> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 01:16:44 +1300
> To: [hidden email]
> From: [hidden email]
>
> if "[hidden email]" does not actually exist, it *should*  
> bounce to [hidden email] but instead the MTA (exim)  
> bounces to [hidden email].
>
> I am adding the Return-Path using:
> -ExtraMIMEHeaders=(array(
> 'Return-Path'='[hidden email]',
> ))
>
> Everything I have read (so far) says that if there's a return-path  
> header there it should bounce to there NOT the from.
>
> Am I going crazy? What am I missing!
>
>
> Jono
>
> // ---------------------------------------------------------
> /*
>     Jonathan Guthrie
>     xServe Ltd, Wellington NZ
>     [hidden email]   |   http://xserve.co.nz
>     DDI +64 4 978 7388   |   Mob +64 21 678890
>
> */
> // ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> ============================================
> Attend the Lasso Summit
> March 2-7, 2007 in Fort Lauderdale, FL
> http://www.LassoSummit.com/
> ============================================
>
> ------------------------------
> Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
> Manage your list subscription: http://www.listsearch.com/ 
> lassotalk.lasso?manage


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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Johan Solve
In reply to this post by Jono-2
On 12/20/06, Jono <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all
>
> I am having problems with bounce handling...
>
> Return-Path: [hidden email]
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> X-Mailer: Lasso Professional 8.5.1
> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 01:16:44 +1300
> To: [hidden email]
> From: [hidden email]
>
> if "[hidden email]" does not actually exist, it *should*
> bounce to [hidden email] but instead the MTA (exim)
> bounces to [hidden email].
>
> I am adding the Return-Path using:
>                                                                         -ExtraMIMEHeaders=(array(
>                                                                                 'Return-Path'='[hidden email]',
>                                                                                 ))
>
> Everything I have read (so far) says that if there's a return-path
> header there it should bounce to there NOT the from.
>
> Am I going crazy? What am I missing!

Return-path is not a working header. It is added by the receiving
server, when the message is delivered to a mailbox. At that point the
SMTP envelope stops existing and therefore the server puts the SMTP
Sender in a return-path header.

What you should be doing is use your bounce address as -sender
address, so it's different from the -from address.


--
     Johan Sölve    [FSA Partner, Lasso Partner]
     Web Application/Lasso/FileMaker Developer
     MONTANIA SOFTWARE & SOLUTIONS
http://www.montania.se   mailto:[hidden email]
 (spam-safe email address, replace '-' with 'a')

============================================
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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Mason Miller
Has anyone written a bulk-mailer/distribution list solution for Lasso?  
I have some mail-heavy applications out there, but I need something for
users to manage lists, create templates, etc.

Mason

Johan Solve wrote:

> On 12/20/06, Jono <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi all
>>
>> I am having problems with bounce handling...
>>
>> Return-Path: [hidden email]
>> MIME-Version: 1.0
>> X-Mailer: Lasso Professional 8.5.1
>> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 01:16:44 +1300
>> To: [hidden email]
>> From: [hidden email]
>>
>> if "[hidden email]" does not actually exist, it *should*
>> bounce to [hidden email] but instead the MTA (exim)
>> bounces to [hidden email].
>>
>> I am adding the Return-Path using:
>>                                                                        
>> -ExtraMIMEHeaders=(array(
>>                                                                                
>> 'Return-Path'='[hidden email]',
>>                                                                                
>> ))
>>
>> Everything I have read (so far) says that if there's a return-path
>> header there it should bounce to there NOT the from.
>>
>> Am I going crazy? What am I missing!
>
> Return-path is not a working header. It is added by the receiving
> server, when the message is delivered to a mailbox. At that point the
> SMTP envelope stops existing and therefore the server puts the SMTP
> Sender in a return-path header.
>
> What you should be doing is use your bounce address as -sender
> address, so it's different from the -from address.
>
>


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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Jolle Carlestam
I'm close to delivering such a system right now. Don't have demo  
available yet. Remind me again after new year.

HDB
JC

20 dec 2006 kl. 16.33 skrev Mason Miller:

> Has anyone written a bulk-mailer/distribution list solution for  
> Lasso?  I have some mail-heavy applications out there, but I need  
> something for users to manage lists, create templates, etc.


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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Mason Miller

On 20 Dec 2006, at 15:33, Mason Miller wrote:

> Has anyone written a bulk-mailer/distribution list solution for  
> Lasso?  I have some mail-heavy applications out there, but I need  
> something for users to manage lists, create templates, etc.

Working on one - not sure what I'm going to do with it though. :-/


-- Clive

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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Jono-2

On 20 Dec 2006, at 12:29, Jono wrote:

> I am having problems with bounce handling...

Try "Errors-To:".


-- Clive

============================================
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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Jono-2
In reply to this post by JP-14
The reply-to is the list address, and it's different to the from  
address, but the bounce seems to come to the -from

On 21/12/2006, at 4:00 AM, JP wrote:

> Most mail programs I know do not always use the return path whether  
> it exists or not.   Often times, I've seen list servs set the  
> "reply-to" field to the desired address -- not the "return-path"    
> This reply-to can be different from the From one.


Jono

// ---------------------------------------------------------
/*
     Jonathan Guthrie
     xServe Ltd, Wellington NZ
     [hidden email]   |   http://xserve.co.nz
     DDI +64 4 978 7388   |   Mob +64 21 678890

*/
// ---------------------------------------------------------



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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Jono-2
In reply to this post by Johan Solve
Yeah on reading docs the return-path is a server added header as you  
say, but the -sender is being ignored and the bounce is coming back  
to the -from...


On 21/12/2006, at 4:30 AM, Johan Solve wrote:

> Return-path is not a working header. It is added by the receiving
> server, when the message is delivered to a mailbox. At that point the
> SMTP envelope stops existing and therefore the server puts the SMTP
> Sender in a return-path header.
>
> What you should be doing is use your bounce address as -sender
> address, so it's different from the -from address.


Jono

// ---------------------------------------------------------
/*
     Jonathan Guthrie
     xServe Ltd, Wellington NZ
     [hidden email]   |   http://xserve.co.nz
     DDI +64 4 978 7388   |   Mob +64 21 678890

*/
// ---------------------------------------------------------



============================================
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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Johan Solve
On 12/20/06, Jono <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Yeah on reading docs the return-path is a server added header as you
> say, but the -sender is being ignored and the bounce is coming back
> to the -from...

What method are you using for the sending? Teh old email_send has no
support for -sender. You need to use email_compose, or use my patch to
add bounce control to email_send at http://montania.se/lassotips/ (LP7
only but I have a version for LP8.1 too)

--
     Johan Sölve    [FSA Partner, Lasso Partner]
     Web Application/Lasso/FileMaker Developer
     MONTANIA SOFTWARE & SOLUTIONS
http://www.montania.se   mailto:[hidden email]
 (spam-safe email address, replace '-' with 'a')

============================================
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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Jono-2
I'm using 8.5.1 locally for development, but the client's server is  
still on 8.1 (he has the upgrade for 8.5 but we haven't had time to  
fully test as it's a mission critical app).

In the LP8.5 reference it specifies under Optional Parameters:
-Sender Adds a sender header to the outgoing email.

So I used that...

I'll try using email compose to see what I get, if no joy I'll  
investigate patching... unless The Powers That Be can shed some light  
on this directly.

On 21/12/2006, at 9:25 AM, Johan Solve wrote:

> On 12/20/06, Jono <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Yeah on reading docs the return-path is a server added header as you
>> say, but the -sender is being ignored and the bounce is coming back
>> to the -from...
>
> What method are you using for the sending? Teh old email_send has no
> support for -sender. You need to use email_compose, or use my patch to
> add bounce control to email_send at http://montania.se/lassotips/ (LP7
> only but I have a version for LP8.1 too)
>

Jono

// ---------------------------------------------------------
/*
     Jonathan Guthrie
     xServe Ltd, Wellington NZ
     [hidden email]   |   http://xserve.co.nz
     DDI +64 4 978 7388   |   Mob +64 21 678890

*/
// ---------------------------------------------------------



Jono

// ---------------------------------------------------------
/*
     Jonathan Guthrie
     xServe Ltd, Wellington NZ
     [hidden email]   |   http://xserve.co.nz
     DDI +64 4 978 7388   |   Mob +64 21 678890

*/
// ---------------------------------------------------------



============================================
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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Jono-2
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
No joy there either...

-ExtraMIMEHeaders=(array(
                'X-Sender'=#groupadmin,
                'X-Apparently-To'=#groupemailaddress,
                'Errors-To'=#groupadmin,
                ))

Still comes back to the sender on bounce :(


On 21/12/2006, at 8:37 AM, Clive Bruton wrote:

> On 20 Dec 2006, at 12:29, Jono wrote:
>
>> I am having problems with bounce handling...
>
> Try "Errors-To:".


Jono

// ---------------------------------------------------------
/*
     Jonathan Guthrie
     xServe Ltd, Wellington NZ
     [hidden email]   |   http://xserve.co.nz
     DDI +64 4 978 7388   |   Mob +64 21 678890

*/
// ---------------------------------------------------------



============================================
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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Jono-2
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
Just an idea, but would creating an envelope in the header tags help?
If so, what sort of things would be appropriate to put in there?

Jono

// ---------------------------------------------------------
/*
     Jonathan Guthrie
     xServe Ltd, Wellington NZ
     [hidden email]   |   http://xserve.co.nz
     DDI +64 4 978 7388   |   Mob +64 21 678890

*/
// ---------------------------------------------------------



============================================
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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

JP-14
In reply to this post by Jono-2
wonder if you need the colons?   I note that Clive has a colon in his.

jp


On Dec 20, 2006, at 8:10 PM, Jono wrote:

> No joy there either...
>
> -ExtraMIMEHeaders=(array(
> 'X-Sender'=#groupadmin,
> 'X-Apparently-To'=#groupemailaddress,
> 'Errors-To'=#groupadmin,
> ))
>
> Still comes back to the sender on bounce :(
>
>
> On 21/12/2006, at 8:37 AM, Clive Bruton wrote:
>
>> On 20 Dec 2006, at 12:29, Jono wrote:
>>
>>> I am having problems with bounce handling...
>>
>> Try "Errors-To:".


============================================
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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Jono-2
The header comes out looking like:
Errors-To: [hidden email]

I am starting to wonder if something like Johan's bounce patch for  
LP7 might be called for here... The email tags are not open in 8.5  
like they may have been in 7 though?

On 21/12/2006, at 3:30 PM, JP wrote:

> wonder if you need the colons?   I note that Clive has a colon in his.
>
> jp
>
>
> On Dec 20, 2006, at 8:10 PM, Jono wrote:
>
>> No joy there either...
>>
>> -ExtraMIMEHeaders=(array(
>> 'X-Sender'=#groupadmin,
>> 'X-Apparently-To'=#groupemailaddress,
>> 'Errors-To'=#groupadmin,
>> ))
>>
>> Still comes back to the sender on bounce :(
>>
>>
>> On 21/12/2006, at 8:37 AM, Clive Bruton wrote:
>>
>>> On 20 Dec 2006, at 12:29, Jono wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am having problems with bounce handling...
>>>
>>> Try "Errors-To:".


Jono

// ---------------------------------------------------------
/*
     Jonathan Guthrie
     xServe Ltd, Wellington NZ
     [hidden email]   |   http://xserve.co.nz
     DDI +64 4 978 7388   |   Mob +64 21 678890

*/
// ---------------------------------------------------------



============================================
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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Jono-2
Found the code (in the documentation area of course) but I'm at a  
loss as to what to patch, partly because I'm not quite sure what  
Johan is achieving in his bounce patch for LP7.

Would this not be better though to have incorporated directly into  
the next version of LP8.5?

In the meantime any of us that are building list server,  
distribution / announce lists or similar products are going to be  
hammered by this issue i reckon.


On 21/12/2006, at 3:58 PM, Jono wrote:

> I am starting to wonder if something like Johan's bounce patch for  
> LP7 might be called for here... The email tags are not open in 8.5  
> like they may have been in 7 though?


Jono

// ---------------------------------------------------------
/*
     Jonathan Guthrie
     xServe Ltd, Wellington NZ
     [hidden email]   |   http://xserve.co.nz
     DDI +64 4 978 7388   |   Mob +64 21 678890

*/
// ---------------------------------------------------------



============================================
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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Fletcher Sandbeck
In reply to this post by Jono-2
> I am starting to wonder if something like Johan's bounce patch for
> LP7 might be called for here... The email tags are not open in 8.5  
> like they may have been in 7 though?

The source code for the email tags is available.  If there is some code
that you would like to see in the email tags please send it, or a
reference to it, to <[hidden email]> and we'll see if we can
get it in 8.5.2.

[fletcher]
--
Fletcher Sandbeck                         [hidden email]
Director of Product Development       http://www.lassostudio.com
OmniPilot Software, Inc.                http://www.omnipilot.com

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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Johan Solve
In reply to this post by Jono-2
On 12/21/06, Jono <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Found the code (in the documentation area of course) but I'm at a
> loss as to what to patch, partly because I'm not quite sure what
> Johan is achieving in his bounce patch for LP7.

It adds support for specifying a X-Bounce-To header, which the patched
email_smtp->send will use as SMTP sender for the message. I've sent
you the patch offlist.

The patch is to be used with 8.1, Lasso 8.5 seems to have support for
-sender in [email_send] as you mentioned, and I haven't verified if
the patch works with 8.5.


--
     Johan Sölve    [FSA Partner, Lasso Partner]
     Web Application/Lasso/FileMaker Developer
     MONTANIA SOFTWARE & SOLUTIONS
http://www.montania.se   mailto:[hidden email]
 (spam-safe email address, replace '-' with 'a')

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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Johan Solve
In reply to this post by Jono-2
On 12/21/06, Johan Solve <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've sent you the patch offlist.

No I tagswapped it instead.

http://www.tagswap.net/smtp_send8

Of special interest is the way I patch an individual member tag of one
of Lasso's built-in data types, without having to redefine the entire
data type. A useful way to change Lasso's standard behavior without
messing with Startup.LassoApp or any other of the factory installed
components.

--
     Johan Sölve    [FSA Partner, Lasso Partner]
     Web Application/Lasso/FileMaker Developer
     MONTANIA SOFTWARE & SOLUTIONS
http://www.montania.se   mailto:[hidden email]
 (spam-safe email address, replace '-' with 'a')

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Re: [OT] bounce mystery

Jono-2
In reply to this post by Johan Solve
Hmmmm... the problem here is that I have been using 8.5.1 and the -
sender tag, and it's directing the bounces to the "-from" not the "-
sender"

local('message' =
        Email_Compose(
                -From=#thisSender,
                -Sender=#groupadmin,
                -ReplyTo=#groupemailaddress,
                -Subject=#sendSubject,
                -Body=(#thisBody+#emailfooter),
                -ExtraMIMEHeaders=(array(
                                'X-Sender'=#groupadmin,
                                'X-Apparently-To'=#groupemailaddress,
                                'Errors-To'=#groupadmin,
                                'X-Bounce-to'=#groupadmin,
                                ))
        )
);
Email_Queue(
        -Data=#message->Data,
        -From=#message->From,
        -Recipients=field('au_email')
        );


And the bounce comes back to #thisSender

So is this an error in 8.5's functionality?



On 21/12/2006, at 9:05 PM, Johan Solve wrote:

> The patch is to be used with 8.1, Lasso 8.5 seems to have support for
> -sender in [email_send] as you mentioned, and I haven't verified if
> the patch works with 8.5.


Jono

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============================================
Attend the Lasso Summit
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http://www.LassoSummit.com/
============================================

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