Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

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Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Simon Forster
OK. NOT wishing to start a platform war but would like to get some  
feedback with respect to best platform to run Lasso on. I'll supply a  
bit of context if I may:

- Server will be administered by a number of people
- Security _is_ a concern (note emphasis)
- Some admins are very unixy - but hate Mac OS X 'cause it sticks  
stuff in the wrong place and "the GUI gets in the way"
- Some admins like the convenience of the GUI features
- Performance / reliability is an issue

My feeling is that if there were a FreeBSD port of Lasso, we'd be  
specifying that. A number of servers use this OS and it's security  
and reliability are admired. However, a FreeBSD port of Lasso is NOT  
available so that's not on the table.

Realistically, Windows is not going to fly either. We have the  
security concerns coupled with the GUI haters dislike of the GUI.

So Linux or OS X? MY perception is that the Linux (Red Hat) version  
of Lasso is the poor cousin - probably as a reflection of its market  
share but other than that, I'm in the dark. Performance wise, is the  
Red Hat version significantly better than the OS X version? What are  
the relative merits of each platform security wise? Some feedback  
from those in the know would be appreciated.

To be clear, hardware costs are not a significant issue. We're  
constrained to a 1U rack mount box but after that, it costs what it  
costs. Security, performance and reliability are far more important -  
probably in that order (redundancy is not so important as it's likely  
we'll have a hot standby).

Leaves a lot open for discussion I know - but then I don't want to  
constrain the discussion too much at this point (given that it's been  
narrowed down to Mac OS v Linux already!).

Simon Forster
_______________________________________________________
  LDML Ltd, 62 Pall Mall, London, SW1Y 5HZ, UK
  Tel: +44 (0)20 8133 0528   Fax: +44 (0)70 9230 5247
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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Jolle Carlestam
I choose OS X. It give openings to both the UNIX geeks and the GUI  
lovers. We run OS X on Xserve and I have nothing bad to say about  
stability. I also sleep fairly well regarding security. Although I  
don't think any OS is completely safe as long as there's a network  
cable connected to it. Performance is always a matter of opinion. My  
opinion is that it's just as much a question of coding efficiently.  
Bad code can grind any performance potential. Not that I find the OS  
X platform slow. I just can't compare it since no other service  
provider run our solutions. It's fast enough not to produce customer  
complaints.

HDB
JC

5 jul 2007 kl. 11.49 skrev Simon Forster:

> OK. NOT wishing to start a platform war but would like to get some  
> feedback with respect to best platform to run Lasso on. I'll supply  
> a bit of context if I may:
>
> - Server will be administered by a number of people
> - Security _is_ a concern (note emphasis)
> - Some admins are very unixy - but hate Mac OS X 'cause it sticks  
> stuff in the wrong place and "the GUI gets in the way"
> - Some admins like the convenience of the GUI features
> - Performance / reliability is an issue
>
> My feeling is that if there were a FreeBSD port of Lasso, we'd be  
> specifying that. A number of servers use this OS and it's security  
> and reliability are admired. However, a FreeBSD port of Lasso is  
> NOT available so that's not on the table.
>
> Realistically, Windows is not going to fly either. We have the  
> security concerns coupled with the GUI haters dislike of the GUI.
>
> So Linux or OS X? MY perception is that the Linux (Red Hat) version  
> of Lasso is the poor cousin - probably as a reflection of its  
> market share but other than that, I'm in the dark. Performance  
> wise, is the Red Hat version significantly better than the OS X  
> version? What are the relative merits of each platform security  
> wise? Some feedback from those in the know would be appreciated.
>
> To be clear, hardware costs are not a significant issue. We're  
> constrained to a 1U rack mount box but after that, it costs what it  
> costs. Security, performance and reliability are far more important  
> - probably in that order (redundancy is not so important as it's  
> likely we'll have a hot standby).
>
> Leaves a lot open for discussion I know - but then I don't want to  
> constrain the discussion too much at this point (given that it's  
> been narrowed down to Mac OS v Linux already!).
>
> Simon Forster
> _______________________________________________________
>  LDML Ltd, 62 Pall Mall, London, SW1Y 5HZ, UK
>  Tel: +44 (0)20 8133 0528   Fax: +44 (0)70 9230 5247
> _______________________________________________________
>
>
>
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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Jonathan Vanherpe (T & T NV)
In reply to this post by Simon Forster
Simon Forster wrote:

> OK. NOT wishing to start a platform war but would like to get some
> feedback with respect to best platform to run Lasso on. I'll supply a
> bit of context if I may:
>
> - Server will be administered by a number of people
> - Security _is_ a concern (note emphasis)
> - Some admins are very unixy - but hate Mac OS X 'cause it sticks stuff
> in the wrong place and "the GUI gets in the way"
> - Some admins like the convenience of the GUI features
> - Performance / reliability is an issue
>
> My feeling is that if there were a FreeBSD port of Lasso, we'd be
> specifying that. A number of servers use this OS and it's security and
> reliability are admired. However, a FreeBSD port of Lasso is NOT
> available so that's not on the table.
>
> Realistically, Windows is not going to fly either. We have the security
> concerns coupled with the GUI haters dislike of the GUI.
>
> So Linux or OS X? MY perception is that the Linux (Red Hat) version of
> Lasso is the poor cousin - probably as a reflection of its market share
> but other than that, I'm in the dark. Performance wise, is the Red Hat
> version significantly better than the OS X version? What are the
> relative merits of each platform security wise? Some feedback from those
> in the know would be appreciated.
>
> To be clear, hardware costs are not a significant issue. We're
> constrained to a 1U rack mount box but after that, it costs what it
> costs. Security, performance and reliability are far more important -
> probably in that order (redundancy is not so important as it's likely
> we'll have a hot standby).
>
> Leaves a lot open for discussion I know - but then I don't want to
> constrain the discussion too much at this point (given that it's been
> narrowed down to Mac OS v Linux already!).
>
> Simon Forster
Hi,

If your unix guys don't like how OS X' file system is laid out, go for
Linux then ;) (but then you'll have your Debian admins that don't like
how Red Hat's file system is slightly different, and you'll have the
same problem ;) ). I don't think having GUI tools are a problem on Linux
nowadays, so you can just install an x-server on the thing and let those
that want it log in using X forwarding or VNC.

As for Lasso support, I have the impression it lags a bit from reading
the list, but a lot of people here seem to be able to run it fine anyway.

I think both OS' are secure enough by default, and they'll stay that way
unless you open up the security holes yourself ;).

I think you'll ultimately have to look at the cost and the
skillset/preference of your admins to make your decision.

Jonathan
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Tallieu & Tallieu
[hidden email]

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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Simon Forster

On 5 Jul 2007, at 11:59, Jonathan Vanherpe (T & T NV) wrote:

> Simon Forster wrote:

>> So Linux or OS X?

> If your unix guys don't like how OS X' file system is laid out, go  
> for Linux then ;) (but then you'll have your Debian admins that  
> don't like how Red Hat's file system is slightly different, and  
> you'll have the same problem ;) ). I don't think having GUI tools  
> are a problem on Linux nowadays, so you can just install an x-
> server on the thing and let those that want it log in using X  
> forwarding or VNC.

GUI's a bit of a red herring in many ways - but your point about the  
(FreeBSD) admins bitchin' about how the Red Hat file system is  
"wrong" is well made. They'll carry on complaining - just change the  
target of the complaint from Mac OS X to Red Hat.

> As for Lasso support, I have the impression it lags a bit from  
> reading the list, but a lot of people here seem to be able to run  
> it fine anyway.

And I'd like to hear from a couple of these guys.

> I think both OS' are secure enough by default, and they'll stay  
> that way unless you open up the security holes yourself ;).
>
> I think you'll ultimately have to look at the cost and the skillset/
> preference of your admins to make your decision.

I think probably you're right. Just want to get some feedback wrt to  
Lasso on Linux.

Simon Forster
_______________________________________________________
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  Tel: +44 (0)20 8133 0528   Fax: +44 (0)70 9230 5247
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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Jussi Hirvi
Simon Forster ([hidden email]) kirjoitteli (5.7.2007 14:28):

>> As for Lasso support, I have the impression it lags a bit from
>> reading the list, but a lot of people here seem to be able to run
>> it fine anyway.
>
> And I'd like to hear from a couple of these guys.

I've been using LP 8.5.2 (with a couple of small L. updates) in production
for a couple of months now, and everything goes smoothly. I saw only one
Linux-specific bug in betas (related to the ref. db filepaths), but it was
soon fixed.

So far I've only been porting my existing L6 apps to L8, so there's a whole
world there that I have not yet seen.

About the "lagging" development of Linux versions - my impression is that
the lags are less than a month. That would not be an issue for me - I would
wait anyway for user experiences before upgrading the prod system. Aside
from that "lag", I see no reason to regard the Linux version as the poor
cousin. Compared to my old Lasso6/OS X version, it's very clear, which one
is the poor relative. :-)

Regards,
Jussi

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Tel. & fax +358-9-493 981
Mobile +358-40-771 2098 (only text messages)
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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Simon Forster


On 5 Jul 2007, at 12:52, Jussi Hirvi wrote:

> Compared to my old Lasso6/OS X version, it's very clear, which one
> is the poor relative. :-)

I assume the smiley means you're referencing the difference in  
software versions rather than OS differences?

Can I ask what prompted you to change OS?

Simon Forster
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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Petrus Näslund-3
In reply to this post by Simon Forster
5 jul 2007 kl. 13.28 skrev Simon Forster:

>> As for Lasso support, I have the impression it lags a bit from reading the list, but a lot of people here seem to be able to run it fine anyway.

> And I'd like to hear from a couple of these guys.

We've been running on Linux since Lasso 6. Back at that
time (4 1/2 years ago), it was really a huge gain in
stability and performance compared to OS X for us (today,
I would guess that OS X has closed the gap).

Sometimes during the years we've had some problems with
the Linux releases lagging a bit behind, but that seems to
have become rare lately.

Today, we have both RHEL4 and CentOS servers running LP
8.5.X without any problems.
We do everything with our servers in terminal over SSH, so
I can not say anything about a nice GUI ;-)

//Petrus

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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Jussi Hirvi
In reply to this post by Simon Forster
Simon Forster ([hidden email]) kirjoitteli (5.7.2007 15:00):
>> Compared to my old Lasso6/OS X version, it's very clear, which one
>> is the poor relative. :-)
>
> I assume the smiley means you're referencing the difference in
> software versions rather than OS differences?

I meant to express that the difference between Lasso/Mac and Lasso/Linux is
not so very big, and I don't see anything "poor" in Lasso/Linux. Not like it
had more bugs or something like that.

> Can I ask what prompted you to change OS?

I had become involved with Linuxes anyway, as our webhotel expanded, and I
had grown more fond on ssh administration than OS X/Timbuktu. Another factor
were the hw prices. Also, I was kind of curious to see how Lasso would run
on Linux. No regrets on my part.

Omnipilot were friendly enough to sell me a cross-upgrade from OS X to
Linux.

- Jussi

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Tel. & fax +358-9-493 981
Mobile +358-40-771 2098 (only text messages)
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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Simon Forster


On 5 Jul 2007, at 13:18, Jussi Hirvi wrote:

> I had become involved with...

Thanks for the insights Jussi.

Simon Forster
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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Anibal Escobar
Hi, I switched from MacOSX to CentOS for the same reasons as Jussi and
can echo his experience.  I particularly like SSH administration.  With
OSX it was easy to rely on Timbuktu, but it is not as good a solution
and taking the time to get comfortable with SSH has been time well
spent.

In addition, if you're going to have multiple admins, I can recommend
Plesk as a control panel software.

Anibal

On Jul 5, 2007, at 8:26 AM, Simon Forster wrote:

>
>
> On 5 Jul 2007, at 13:18, Jussi Hirvi wrote:
>
>> I had become involved with...
>
> Thanks for the insights Jussi.
>
> Simon Forster
> _______________________________________________________
>  LDML Ltd, 62 Pall Mall, London, SW1Y 5HZ, UK
>  Tel: +44 (0)20 8133 0528   Fax: +44 (0)70 9230 5247
> _______________________________________________________
>
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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Jolle Carlestam
Just for the record. I use SSH connecting to and configuring my OS X  
servers all the time. You don't need Linux to do that.

And I sometimes use Apples Server admin tools and sometimes I connect  
using Apples Remote Desktop. It depends on what I need to do and what  
mood I'm in.

Apples Remote Desktop works better than Timbuktu in my opinion. And  
it's an integrated part of the system thus avoiding conflicts with  
other parts of the OS.

HDB
JC

5 jul 2007 kl. 16.37 skrev Anibal Escobar:

> Hi, I switched from MacOSX to CentOS for the same reasons as Jussi  
> and can echo his experience.  I particularly like SSH  
> administration.  With OSX it was easy to rely on Timbuktu, but it  
> is not as good a solution and taking the time to get comfortable  
> with SSH has been time well spent.
>
> In addition, if you're going to have multiple admins, I can  
> recommend Plesk as a control panel software.
>
> Anibal
>
> On Jul 5, 2007, at 8:26 AM, Simon Forster wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 5 Jul 2007, at 13:18, Jussi Hirvi wrote:
>>
>>> I had become involved with...
>>
>> Thanks for the insights Jussi.
>>
>> Simon Forster
>> _______________________________________________________
>>  LDML Ltd, 62 Pall Mall, London, SW1Y 5HZ, UK
>>  Tel: +44 (0)20 8133 0528   Fax: +44 (0)70 9230 5247
>> _______________________________________________________
>>
>> --
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>
>
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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Greg Willits-2
On Jul 5, 2007, at 8:14 AM, Jolle Carlestam wrote:

> Just for the record. I use SSH connecting to and configuring my OS  
> X servers all the time. You don't need Linux to do that.
>
> And I sometimes use Apples Server admin tools and sometimes I  
> connect using Apples Remote Desktop. It depends on what I need to  
> do and what mood I'm in.
>
> Apples Remote Desktop works better than Timbuktu in my opinion. And  
> it's an integrated part of the system thus avoiding conflicts with  
> other parts of the OS.


Agreed. I have a handful of OS X boxes with a mix of admins. Some  
guys do everything by SSH. I do a mix of SSH and Apple Remote Desktop  
(most certainly better than Timbuktu IMO).

As for the GUI, I skip the GUI for Apache and other things and set  
everything up manually. In fact much of the setup is scripted via  
Capistrano so setting up a new box is mostly automated. Lasso setup  
is the big speed bump to this approach. It takes longer to config  
Lasso through Admin than it does to do the rest of the box.

We also set up our own web directory rather than follow the Apple  
defaults. This makes sure our setup doesn't get trampled by OS updates.

User management is something that's easier to do via GUI than CLI in  
OS X though.

What I find good about OS X is that it can be administrated by  
different people the GUI or CLI way. So, if you've got a a mix of  
admins (assuming each has a specialty), then it seems OS X is the  
best adapted to that.

I also like OS X's hardware monitoring system. Even the Linux die  
hards I know are impressed with this (and the various tools in ARD  
for system maintenance).

As for Lasso, I did set up 8.5.2 on RHEL4 once. Just reading the  
instructions gave me a headache. Took forever to work my through it.  
Granted RHEL is not something I'm super fluent with, but even if I  
was, it just seems that the instructions for doing anything on linux  
is a lot more complex than it is for OS X (but I can appreciate why  
OS nerds for a large distributed system would like it).

-- gw


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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Jussi Hirvi
In reply to this post by Jolle Carlestam
Jolle Carlestam ([hidden email]) kirjoitteli (5.7.2007 18:14):
> Just for the record. I use SSH connecting to and configuring my OS X
> servers all the time. You don't need Linux to do that.

Sure. I too use SSH for Apache configuration. However, as Greg pointed out,
user management is harder with SSH than with GUI tools. Netinfo Manager

Some configuration files cannot be manually edited, because they are
overridden by system prefs panel values at reboot - don't remember any
specific cases now. So AFAIK, you *have to* use GUI sometimes with OS X.

- Jussi

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Tel. & fax +358-9-493 981
Mobile +358-40-771 2098 (only text messages)
[hidden email] * http://www.greenspot.fi/


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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Greg Willits-2
On Jul 6, 2007, at 1:11 AM, Jussi Hirvi wrote:

> Jolle Carlestam ([hidden email]) kirjoitteli (5.7.2007 18:14):
>> Just for the record. I use SSH connecting to and configuring my OS X
>> servers all the time. You don't need Linux to do that.
>
> Sure. I too use SSH for Apache configuration. However, as Greg  
> pointed out,
> user management is harder with SSH than with GUI tools. Netinfo  
> Manager
>
> Some configuration files cannot be manually edited, because they are
> overridden by system prefs panel values at reboot - don't remember any
> specific cases now. So AFAIK, you *have to* use GUI sometimes with  
> OS X.


The ones you're thinking of are probably in /etc/hostconfig -- or  
turning things on/off?

-- gw



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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Jussi Hirvi
Greg Willits ([hidden email]) kirjoitteli (6.7.2007 11:44):
> The ones you're thinking of are probably in /etc/hostconfig -- or
> turning things on/off?

Probably, yes. Anything doing with network settings, hostnames etc.

- Jussi

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Tel. & fax +358-9-493 981
Mobile +358-40-771 2098 (only text messages)
[hidden email] * http://www.greenspot.fi/


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Re: Lasso and Linux or Mac OS?

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Jussi Hirvi

On 6 Jul 2007, at 09:11, Jussi Hirvi wrote:

> Some configuration files cannot be manually edited, because they are
> overridden by system prefs panel values at reboot - don't remember any
> specific cases now.

Some portions of the cups.conf get overwritten/rewritten by the OS  
every time you try to start the service, when you're using MacOS X  
server.


-- Clive

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