L9 Docs

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L9 Docs

Jim Van Heule-3
I love the idea of the L9 wiki and it being populated by developers along with LassoSoft.

My problem is that I want to start using L9 now and don't have a clue where to start. It already hurts us financially to  spend money every month on LP8.5 development knowing full well its going to cost me again to update it to L9. Without documents L9 is still vaporware.

We are about to start a 2-3 year project next month. This is a project I've held off for almost a year waiting for L9 and it just can't be held off anymore. My heart says to stay with Lasso, but my business side says to move to a safer product that I can use now that gets updated regularly and has docs. The project will probably go to PHP just so we can keep our business moving forward. If that project goes to php, so will everything else in our business. We are considering PHP because PHP has proven it can handle external connections to other sources much better than LP8.5 can. L9 may be just as good, but without being able to test it, we need to go with what we know will work.


Jim Van Heule
Heunox Corporation
www.Heunox.com




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Re: L9 Docs

Brad Lindsay-2
On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, Jim Van Heule wrote:
> I love the idea of the L9 wiki and it being populated by developers along with LassoSoft.
>
> My problem is that I want to start using L9 now and don't have a clue where to start. It already hurts us financially to  spend money every month on LP8.5 development knowing full well its going to cost me again to update it to L9. Without documents L9 is still vaporware.
>
> We are about to start a 2-3 year project next month. This is a project I've held off for almost a year waiting for L9 and it just can't be held off anymore. My heart says to stay with Lasso, but my business side says to move to a safer product that I can use now that gets updated regularly and has docs. The project will probably go to PHP just so we can keep our business moving forward. If that project goes to php, so will everything else in our business. We are considering PHP because PHP has proven it can handle external connections to other sources much better than LP8.5 can. L9 may be just as good, but without being able to test it, we need to go with what we know will work.

What do you need to know to be able to test it?  What are the two biggest pieces of documentation that are missing that keeps you from testing it? (I'm asking this to see where you think we need to prioritize getting our documentation up.)

Brad

P.S. The people on this list have been an invaluable resource for me when I come across issues in Lasso 9
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Re: L9 Docs

Marc Pinnell-3
Don't know where Jim is at, but for me a quick overview of the admin changes and how things are different. I know there is a new way to handle databases with LP9, but don't know if I have seen anything that says "this is the new way to do it" - basically see chapters 7, 8 and 9 of the LP8.5 Setup Guide PDF. In a nutshell give us at least some basic structure and a few breadcrumbs to get moving with. I kinda find myself sitting here staring at LP9 with no idea of where to start and eventually just go back to 8.5 "works" and back to my clients' work.

Marc


On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Brad Lindsay wrote:

> On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, Jim Van Heule wrote:
>> I love the idea of the L9 wiki and it being populated by developers along with LassoSoft.
>>
>> My problem is that I want to start using L9 now and don't have a clue where to start. It already hurts us financially to  spend money every month on LP8.5 development knowing full well its going to cost me again to update it to L9. Without documents L9 is still vaporware.
>>
>> We are about to start a 2-3 year project next month. This is a project I've held off for almost a year waiting for L9 and it just can't be held off anymore. My heart says to stay with Lasso, but my business side says to move to a safer product that I can use now that gets updated regularly and has docs. The project will probably go to PHP just so we can keep our business moving forward. If that project goes to php, so will everything else in our business. We are considering PHP because PHP has proven it can handle external connections to other sources much better than LP8.5 can. L9 may be just as good, but without being able to test it, we need to go with what we know will work.
>
> What do you need to know to be able to test it?  What are the two biggest pieces of documentation that are missing that keeps you from testing it? (I'm asking this to see where you think we need to prioritize getting our documentation up.)
>
> Brad
>
> P.S. The people on this list have been an invaluable resource for me when I come across issues in Lasso 9
> --
> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
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Re: L9 Docs

Waters, Thomas C
I'm in the same boat. Marc's comments are right on the money.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 28, 2010, at 6:17 PM, "Marc Pinnell" <[hidden email]
 > wrote:

> Don't know where Jim is at, but for me a quick overview of the admin  
> changes and how things are different. I know there is a new way to  
> handle databases with LP9, but don't know if I have seen anything  
> that says "this is the new way to do it" - basically see chapters 7,  
> 8 and 9 of the LP8.5 Setup Guide PDF. In a nutshell give us at least  
> some basic structure and a few breadcrumbs to get moving with. I  
> kinda find myself sitting here staring at LP9 with no idea of where  
> to start and eventually just go back to 8.5 "works" and back to my  
> clients' work.
>
> Marc
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Brad Lindsay wrote:
>
>> On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, Jim Van Heule wrote:
>>> I love the idea of the L9 wiki and it being populated by  
>>> developers along with LassoSoft.
>>>
>>> My problem is that I want to start using L9 now and don't have a  
>>> clue where to start. It already hurts us financially to  spend  
>>> money every month on LP8.5 development knowing full well its going  
>>> to cost me again to update it to L9. Without documents L9 is still  
>>> vaporware.
>>>
>>> We are about to start a 2-3 year project next month. This is a  
>>> project I've held off for almost a year waiting for L9 and it just  
>>> can't be held off anymore. My heart says to stay with Lasso, but  
>>> my business side says to move to a safer product that I can use  
>>> now that gets updated regularly and has docs. The project will  
>>> probably go to PHP just so we can keep our business moving  
>>> forward. If that project goes to php, so will everything else in  
>>> our business. We are considering PHP because PHP has proven it can  
>>> handle external connections to other sources much better than  
>>> LP8.5 can. L9 may be just as good, but without being able to test  
>>> it, we need to go with what we know will work.
>>
>> What do you need to know to be able to test it?  What are the two  
>> biggest pieces of documentation that are missing that keeps you  
>> from testing it? (I'm asking this to see where you think we need to  
>> prioritize getting our documentation up.)
>>
>> Brad
>>
>> P.S. The people on this list have been an invaluable resource for  
>> me when I come across issues in Lasso 9
>> --
>> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
>> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
>> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/
>>
>>
>
>
> --
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>

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Re: L9 Docs

stevepiercy
We've started an outline for installation, but there is no
content in place yet.
https://lassosoft.wiki.zoho.com/Installation.html

We are still discussing what should be the top priorities in
documentation.  My personal feeling is that we should look at
the documentation as if we are complete newbs to Lasso 9, and
try to perform the following:

* an installation
* a configuration
* setting up a connection to a datasource

What other items should be top priorities?  Please be as
specific as possible, for example, "what is new in Lasso 9",
"what is different in Lasso 9 from Lasso 8", "writing files to
the file system" or "working with PDFs".

--steve


On 6/28/10 at 7:34 PM, [hidden email] (Waters, Thomas C) pronounced:

>I'm in the same boat. Marc's comments are right on the money.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Jun 28, 2010, at 6:17 PM, "Marc Pinnell" <[hidden email]
>>wrote:
>
>>Don't know where Jim is at, but for me a quick overview of the
>>admin  changes and how things are different. I know there is a
>>new way to  handle databases with LP9, but don't know if I
>>have seen anything  that says "this is the new way to do it" -
>>basically see chapters 7,  8 and 9 of the LP8.5 Setup Guide
>>PDF. In a nutshell give us at least  some basic structure and
>>a few breadcrumbs to get moving with. I  kinda find myself
>>sitting here staring at LP9 with no idea of where  to start
>>and eventually just go back to 8.5 "works" and back to my  
>>clients' work.
>>
>>Marc
>>
>>
>>On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Brad Lindsay wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, Jim Van Heule wrote:
>>>>  I love the idea of the L9 wiki and it being populated by  
>>>>developers along with LassoSoft.
>>>>
>>>>  My problem is that I want to start using L9 now and don't
>>>>have a   clue where to start. It already hurts us
>>>>financially to  spend   money every month on LP8.5
>>>>development knowing full well its going   to cost me again
>>>>to update it to L9. Without documents L9 is still   vaporware.
>>>>
>>>>  We are about to start a 2-3 year project next month. This
>>>>is a   project I've held off for almost a year waiting for
>>>>L9 and it just   can't be held off anymore. My heart says to
>>>>stay with Lasso, but   my business side says to move to a
>>>>safer product that I can use   now that gets updated
>>>>regularly and has docs. The project will   probably go to
>>>>PHP just so we can keep our business moving   forward. If
>>>>that project goes to php, so will everything else in   our
>>>>business. We are considering PHP because PHP has proven it
>>>>can   handle external connections to other sources much
>>>>better than   LP8.5 can. L9 may be just as good, but without
>>>>being able to test   it, we need to go with what we know
>>>>will work.
>>>
>>>  What do you need to know to be able to test it?  What are
>>>the two   biggest pieces of documentation that are missing
>>>that keeps you   from testing it? (I'm asking this to see
>>>where you think we need to   prioritize getting our
>>>documentation up.)
>>>
>>> Brad
>>>
>>>  P.S. The people on this list have been an invaluable
>>>resource for   me when I come across issues in Lasso 9
>>> --
>>> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
>>> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
>>> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
>>Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
>>Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/
>>
>>
>
>--
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Soquel, CA
<[hidden email]>                  <http://www.StevePiercy.com/>


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Re: L9 Docs

Marc Pinnell-3
For me (and I suspect a lot of others that want to dive in but are reluctant) that is a perfect first three steps. I have managed to get past step #1 and can get a hello page going, but got stuck at that point.

Beyond that? I think everyone will go off in every direction under the sun, but we all need to start in the same place (or at least many of us). My preference for the next step would be a quick, write something and retrieve it from a MySQL table in the preferred syntax and format.

Marc


On Jun 28, 2010, at 4:57 PM, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote:

> We've started an outline for installation, but there is no content in place yet.
> https://lassosoft.wiki.zoho.com/Installation.html
>
> We are still discussing what should be the top priorities in documentation.  My personal feeling is that we should look at the documentation as if we are complete newbs to Lasso 9, and try to perform the following:
>
> * an installation
> * a configuration
> * setting up a connection to a datasource
>
> What other items should be top priorities?  Please be as specific as possible, for example, "what is new in Lasso 9", "what is different in Lasso 9 from Lasso 8", "writing files to the file system" or "working with PDFs".
>
> --steve
>
>
> On 6/28/10 at 7:34 PM, [hidden email] (Waters, Thomas C) pronounced:
>
>> I'm in the same boat. Marc's comments are right on the money.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jun 28, 2010, at 6:17 PM, "Marc Pinnell" <[hidden email]
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> Don't know where Jim is at, but for me a quick overview of the admin  changes and how things are different. I know there is a new way to  handle databases with LP9, but don't know if I have seen anything  that says "this is the new way to do it" - basically see chapters 7,  8 and 9 of the LP8.5 Setup Guide PDF. In a nutshell give us at least  some basic structure and a few breadcrumbs to get moving with. I  kinda find myself sitting here staring at LP9 with no idea of where  to start and eventually just go back to 8.5 "works" and back to my  clients' work.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Brad Lindsay wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, Jim Van Heule wrote:
>>>>> I love the idea of the L9 wiki and it being populated by   developers along with LassoSoft.
>>>>>
>>>>> My problem is that I want to start using L9 now and don't have a   clue where to start. It already hurts us financially to  spend   money every month on LP8.5 development knowing full well its going   to cost me again to update it to L9. Without documents L9 is still   vaporware.
>>>>>
>>>>> We are about to start a 2-3 year project next month. This is a   project I've held off for almost a year waiting for L9 and it just   can't be held off anymore. My heart says to stay with Lasso, but   my business side says to move to a safer product that I can use   now that gets updated regularly and has docs. The project will   probably go to PHP just so we can keep our business moving   forward. If that project goes to php, so will everything else in   our business. We are considering PHP because PHP has proven it can   handle external connections to other sources much better than   LP8.5 can. L9 may be just as good, but without being able to test   it, we need to go with what we know will work.
>>>>
>>>> What do you need to know to be able to test it?  What are the two   biggest pieces of documentation that are missing that keeps you   from testing it? (I'm asking this to see where you think we need to   prioritize getting our documentation up.)
>>>>
>>>> Brad
>>>>
>>>> P.S. The people on this list have been an invaluable resource for   me when I come across issues in Lasso 9
>>>> --
>>>> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
>>>> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
>>>> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
>>> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
>>> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
>> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
>> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/
>>
>>
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> Steve Piercy               Web Site Builder               Soquel, CA
> <[hidden email]>                  <http://www.StevePiercy.com/>
>
>
> --
> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
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>
>


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Re: L9 Docs

Jim Van Heule-3
In reply to this post by Marc Pinnell-3
I guess what Marc said. I don't even know where to start. I saw all kinds of incompatibility talk in Lasso beta, but the wiki barely makes mention of anything that I can see. I've heard from several that they tried L9 only to find their existing code fails and don't spend the time trying to fix it because they don't know how much time is involved.

The bottom line is that I can't run a business on unknowns.

Jim Van Heule
Heunox Corporation
www.Heunox.com



On Jun 28, 2010, at 6:16 PM, Marc Pinnell wrote:

> Don't know where Jim is at, but for me a quick overview of the admin changes and how things are different. I know there is a new way to handle databases with LP9, but don't know if I have seen anything that says "this is the new way to do it" - basically see chapters 7, 8 and 9 of the LP8.5 Setup Guide PDF. In a nutshell give us at least some basic structure and a few breadcrumbs to get moving with. I kinda find myself sitting here staring at LP9 with no idea of where to start and eventually just go back to 8.5 "works" and back to my clients' work.
>
> Marc
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Brad Lindsay wrote:
>
>> On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, Jim Van Heule wrote:
>>> I love the idea of the L9 wiki and it being populated by developers along with LassoSoft.
>>>
>>> My problem is that I want to start using L9 now and don't have a clue where to start. It already hurts us financially to  spend money every month on LP8.5 development knowing full well its going to cost me again to update it to L9. Without documents L9 is still vaporware.
>>>
>>> We are about to start a 2-3 year project next month. This is a project I've held off for almost a year waiting for L9 and it just can't be held off anymore. My heart says to stay with Lasso, but my business side says to move to a safer product that I can use now that gets updated regularly and has docs. The project will probably go to PHP just so we can keep our business moving forward. If that project goes to php, so will everything else in our business. We are considering PHP because PHP has proven it can handle external connections to other sources much better than LP8.5 can. L9 may be just as good, but without being able to test it, we need to go with what we know will work.
>>
>> What do you need to know to be able to test it?  What are the two biggest pieces of documentation that are missing that keeps you from testing it? (I'm asking this to see where you think we need to prioritize getting our documentation up.)
>>
>> Brad
>>
>> P.S. The people on this list have been an invaluable resource for me when I come across issues in Lasso 9
>> --
>> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
>> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
>> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/
>
>


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Re: L9 Docs

stevepiercy
Aye, and there's the rub.

As far as setting priorities for documenting on the wiki beyond
basic install and config, you have to know where your existing
code fails in 9.  Then you can identify specific code blocks
that do not behave the same in 9 as you would expect in 8.  Then
the Editors and community can identify what it will take to
migrate each piece from 8 to 9.

Would I be correct in assuming that you would like the Editors
of the wiki to continue to make the following section a top priority?
https://lassosoft.wiki.zoho.com/Moving-to-Lasso-9.html

--steve


On 6/28/10 at 8:03 PM, [hidden email] (Jim Van Heule) pronounced:

>I guess what Marc said. I don't even know where to start. I saw
>all kinds of incompatibility talk in Lasso beta, but the wiki
>barely makes mention of anything that I can see. I've heard
>from several that they tried L9 only to find their existing
>code fails and don't spend the time trying to fix it because
>they don't know how much time is involved.
>
>The bottom line is that I can't run a business on unknowns.
>
>Jim Van Heule
>Heunox Corporation
>www.Heunox.com
>
>
>
>On Jun 28, 2010, at 6:16 PM, Marc Pinnell wrote:
>
>>Don't know where Jim is at, but for me a quick overview of the admin changes and
>how things are different. I know there is a new way to handle
>databases with LP9, but don't know if I have seen anything that
>says "this is the new way to do it" - basically see chapters 7,
>8 and 9 of the LP8.5 Setup Guide PDF. In a nutshell give us at
>least some basic structure and a few breadcrumbs to get moving
>with. I kinda find myself sitting here staring at LP9 with no
>idea of where to start and eventually just go back to 8.5
>"works" and back to my clients' work.
>>
>>Marc
>>
>>
>>On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Brad Lindsay wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, Jim Van Heule wrote:
>>>> I love the idea of the L9 wiki and it being populated by developers along with
>LassoSoft.
>>>>   My problem is that I want to start using L9 now and don't
>>>>have a clue where to
>start. It already hurts us financially to  spend money every
>month on LP8.5 development knowing full well its going to cost
>me again to update it to L9. Without documents L9 is still vaporware.
>>>>   We are about to start a 2-3 year project next month. This
>>>>is a project I've held
>off for almost a year waiting for L9 and it just can't be held
>off anymore. My heart says to stay with Lasso, but my business
>side says to move to a safer product that I can use now that
>gets updated regularly and has docs. The project will probably
>go to PHP just so we can keep our business moving forward. If
>that project goes to php, so will everything else in our
>business. We are considering PHP because PHP has proven it can
>handle external connections to other sources much better than
>LP8.5 can. L9 may be just as good, but without being able to
>test it, we need to go with what we know will work.
>>>   What do you need to know to be able to test it?  What are
>>>the two biggest pieces
>of documentation that are missing that keeps you from testing
>it? (I'm asking this to see where you think we need to
>prioritize getting our documentation up.)
>>>   Brad
>>>   P.S. The people on this list have been an invaluable
>>>resource for me when I come
>across issues in Lasso 9
>>> --
>>> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
>>> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
>>> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/
>>>  
>>
>>
>>--
>>This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
>>Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
>>Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/
>>
>>
>
>
>--
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>Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
>Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/
>
>

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-- --
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Soquel, CA
<[hidden email]>                  <http://www.StevePiercy.com/>


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Re: L9 Docs

Eric Landmann
In reply to this post by stevepiercy
On 6/28/10 at 6:57 PM, [hidden email] (Steve Piercy - Web
Site Builder) wrote:

>We've started an outline for installation, but there is no content in place yet.
>https://lassosoft.wiki.zoho.com/Installation.html
>
>We are still discussing what should be the top priorities in
>documentation.  My personal feeling is that we should look at
>the documentation as if we are complete newbs to Lasso 9, and
>try to perform the following:
>
>* an installation
>* a configuration
>* setting up a connection to a datasource
>
>What other items should be top priorities?  Please be as
>specific as possible, for example, "what is new in Lasso 9",
>"what is different in Lasso 9 from Lasso 8", "writing files to
>the file system" or "working with PDFs".

How about a "Lasso 9 for 8.5 Developers" section. In other
words, what do us 8.5 developers need to pay attention to to get
Lasso 9 projects up and running?

--Eric


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Re: L9 Docs

Douglas Burchard
In reply to this post by Brad Lindsay-2
On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Brad Lindsay wrote:

> What do you need to know to be able to test it?  What are the two biggest pieces of documentation that are missing that keeps you from testing it? (I'm asking this to see where you think we need to prioritize getting our documentation up.)

I'm an 8.5 developer who would probably be best served with a chapter/page on moving from 8.5 to 9. However, if LS is focussing only on migrating their existing developer base, I'd probably be even better served by learning PHP.

A chapter/page on, and an example of, a simple add/update/search/list/detail/delete suite would best serve the needs of the entire Lasso community, both present and future. Then, a list with basic syntax and description of every tag would allow us to expand on our own (just avoid the "see the language guide" type of description).


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Re: L9 Docs

Tom Parker-16
In December, I installed Lasso 9 on a Mac from SVN using instructions
in an article on LassoTech.  With some help from members of the Beta
list, I was able to get Lasso 9 installed and working (I am normally a
Windows user so I was even unfamiliar with where the localhost
directory is on a Mac).  In general, Lasso 9 seems to work very much
the same as 8.5.  Basic operations like add/update/search etc. work
the same in 9 as in 8.5 using the same syntax, although I think there
are entirely different new ways to do them.  I was able to connect to
a MySQL data source with no trouble.  In fact, the Admin interface is
very simple and intuitive once you realize you need to expand certain
tabs from the side.

In my opinion, the main barrier to transitioning from 8.5 to 9 is a
few "gotchas" related to how certain "tags" behave.  For me, it was
arrays that finally caused me to throw in the towel.  In one of my
projects I iterate through a array, referring to positions in the
array (and a bunch of other stuff), and I never could debug it
sufficiently so it would work in 9.  It works fine in 8.5 so I
stubbornly thought it should also work in 9.  Being overly busy, it
was easy to put that project on hold until a mature documentation set
(and hopefully more compatible language) was available.  Had It stuck
with it, I am sure I would have that site working now.  Kyle was very
responsive and made some changes to Records_Map which fixed one
problem I was having.

I think it will require more than documentation, however.  In my
opinion, if even 20 percent of the people on this list were to install
the developer version and begin trying to get their simplest existing
Lasso projects to run on it (while discussing it with and helping each
other), we would achieve a critical mass that could begin to create a
body of information that would help Steve and Brad populate the
documentation, and answer questions about what is the highest priority
for future documentation.  I  think for two guys to write
documentation in a very static environment would be a difficult task.
Right now, it appears few people have been willing to take the plunge
and try Lasso 9.  I suspect many people on this list are better
programmers than I am (I am an ecologist in real life), and I almost
have some of my projects working in 9.

In summary, I think the documentation approach is great.  I also think
participation by as many people as possible is a necessary ingredient.

--Tom Parker

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 8:44 PM, Douglas Burchard
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Brad Lindsay wrote:
>
>> What do you need to know to be able to test it?  What are the two biggest pieces of documentation that are missing that keeps you from testing it? (I'm asking this to see where you think we need to prioritize getting our documentation up.)
>
> I'm an 8.5 developer who would probably be best served with a chapter/page on moving from 8.5 to 9. However, if LS is focussing only on migrating their existing developer base, I'd probably be even better served by learning PHP.
>
> A chapter/page on, and an example of, a simple add/update/search/list/detail/delete suite would best serve the needs of the entire Lasso community, both present and future. Then, a list with basic syntax and description of every tag would allow us to expand on our own (just avoid the "see the language guide" type of description).
>
>
> --
> Douglas Burchard, President
> DouglasBurchard.com, Web Applications
> 15024 NE 66th Street
> Redmond, WA  98052, USA
>
> direct: (206) 227-8161
> [hidden email]
> http://www.douglasburchard.com/
>
>
>
>
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Re: L9 Docs

Ke Carlton-3
In reply to this post by stevepiercy
I think a basic outline on how to shift to native database permissions
instead from using the abstracted Lasso permissions that no longer
exist in L9 would help a lot of people. It seemed to be a hot topic in
terms of complaints / confusion.

I imagine it would be a broad overview of how to work with database
security in L9, from database setup through to specific code examples
(ie. specifying usernames and passwords in inlines etc).

Personally, I would like to see detail on code blocks and their
associated methods (currentBlock etc).

Ke

On 29 June 2010 00:57, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> What other items should be top priorities?  Please be as specific as possible, for example, "what is new in Lasso 9", "what is different in Lasso 9 from Lasso 8", "writing files to the file system" or "working with PDFs".
>
> --steve

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Re: L9 Docs

stevepiercy
In reply to this post by Eric Landmann
On 6/28/10 at 8:26 PM, [hidden email] (Eric
Landmann) pronounced:

>On 6/28/10 at 6:57 PM, [hidden email] (Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder) wrote:
>
>>We've started an outline for installation, but there is no content in place yet.
>>https://lassosoft.wiki.zoho.com/Installation.html
>>
>>We are still discussing what should be the top priorities in
>>documentation.  My personal feeling is that we should look at
>>the documentation as if we are complete newbs to Lasso 9, and
>>try to perform the following:
>>
>>* an installation
>>* a configuration
>>* setting up a connection to a datasource
>>
>>What other items should be top priorities?  Please be as
>>specific as possible, for example, "what is new in Lasso 9",
>>"what is different in Lasso 9 from Lasso 8", "writing files to
>>the file system" or "working with PDFs".
>
>How about a "Lasso 9 for 8.5 Developers" section. In other
>words, what do us 8.5 developers need to pay attention to to
>get Lasso 9 projects up and running?

Would this section address that question, at least in a general sense?
https://lassosoft.wiki.zoho.com/What-Has-Changed.html

Of course, what each developer needs to pay attention to will
vary according to what they use in Lasso 8 currently.  For
example, some developers only need the ability to connect to
data sources, and don't need to write files to the system, serve
PDFs, etc.

We are seeking specific topics.  I know, it's a chicken-and-egg
thing.  You won't know what breaks in 9 until you try to run a
site in 9.

I have my own personal opinion of specific topics that should be
addressed as a top priority, but I don't want my personal
opinion to bias input from the community.

--steve

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Soquel, CA
<[hidden email]>                  <http://www.StevePiercy.com/>


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Re: L9 Docs

James Harvard
>You won't know what breaks in 9 until you try to run a site in 9.

Presumably Lassosoft knows what works in 8.5 but will break in 9? This sort of thing http://www.lassotech.com/8_to_9_syntax

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Re: L9 Docs

James Harvard
In reply to this post by Eric Landmann
Hear hear.

Obviously 'install & configure' is essential for everyone. After that FWIW I think you need to concentrate on allowing the bulk of existing users to get up and running, i.e. 8.5 users connecting to MySQL.

So, in order of priority:

 1) What can we no longer do that we used to do? (deprecated tags, syntax changes - see my e-mail of a few minutes ago)

 2) Key elements of new syntax. (As opposed to new tags, which are lower priority IMO.)

I think part of the problem is that people like me look at some of the L9 code people post here and think "WTF?". It is a *big* obstacle to getting involved in L9 if you can't understand what other people are coding, so IMO in the first instance a guide to the new syntax is important to help build community involvement; allowing people to actually use & harness the new sytnax is less important.

James


>On 6/28/10 at 6:57 PM, [hidden email] (Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder) wrote:
>
>>We've started an outline for installation, but there is no content in place yet.
>>https://lassosoft.wiki.zoho.com/Installation.html
>>
>>We are still discussing what should be the top priorities in documentation.  My personal feeling is that we should look at the documentation as if we are complete newbs to Lasso 9, and try to perform the following:
>>
>>* an installation
>>* a configuration
>>* setting up a connection to a datasource
>>
>>What other items should be top priorities?  Please be as specific as possible, for example, "what is new in Lasso 9", "what is different in Lasso 9 from Lasso 8", "writing files to the file system" or "working with PDFs".
>
>How about a "Lasso 9 for 8.5 Developers" section. In other words, what do us 8.5 developers need to pay attention to to get Lasso 9 projects up and running?

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Re: L9 Docs

James Harvard
Oh, and I think it would be very helpful in the upgrade/migration docs to distinguish between 'can', 'should', and 'must'!

You *can* do it this way. (Innovations in 9. Useful in the long term, but not critical at the moment except where it might aid understanding of others' code, e.g. the new custom tag definition stuff.)

You *should* do it this way. (Where 'best practice' has changed. Not critical but important as it's a good idea to adopt 'best practice' from the outset.)

You *must* do it this way. (Critical changes that mean code that was well-written by 8.5 standards breaks in 9.)

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Re: L9 Docs

John Morris-3
In reply to this post by Marc Pinnell-3
For me i'l like to run the installer and it work.
I've had Lasso 9 running before, but I recently tried to install it on a fresh copy of 10.6, and I couldn't get it to run.
I ran out of time, only giving myself a few minutes to get it installed, and had to give up.

So, a set of pages that had uptodate install instructions that got everything running would be nice.

John Morris

On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Marc Pinnell wrote:

> Don't know where Jim is at, but for me a quick overview of the admin changes and how things are different. I know there is a new way to handle databases with LP9, but don't know if I have seen anything that says "this is the new way to do it" - basically see chapters 7, 8 and 9 of the LP8.5 Setup Guide PDF. In a nutshell give us at least some basic structure and a few breadcrumbs to get moving with. I kinda find myself sitting here staring at LP9 with no idea of where to start and eventually just go back to 8.5 "works" and back to my clients' work.
>
> Marc
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Brad Lindsay wrote:
>
>> On Jun 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, Jim Van Heule wrote:
>>> I love the idea of the L9 wiki and it being populated by developers along with LassoSoft.
>>>
>>> My problem is that I want to start using L9 now and don't have a clue where to start. It already hurts us financially to  spend money every month on LP8.5 development knowing full well its going to cost me again to update it to L9. Without documents L9 is still vaporware.
>>>
>>> We are about to start a 2-3 year project next month. This is a project I've held off for almost a year waiting for L9 and it just can't be held off anymore. My heart says to stay with Lasso, but my business side says to move to a safer product that I can use now that gets updated regularly and has docs. The project will probably go to PHP just so we can keep our business moving forward. If that project goes to php, so will everything else in our business. We are considering PHP because PHP has proven it can handle external connections to other sources much better than LP8.5 can. L9 may be just as good, but without being able to test it, we need to go with what we know will work.
>>
>> What do you need to know to be able to test it?  What are the two biggest pieces of documentation that are missing that keeps you from testing it? (I'm asking this to see where you think we need to prioritize getting our documentation up.)
>>
>> Brad
>>
>> P.S. The people on this list have been an invaluable resource for me when I come across issues in Lasso 9
>> --
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>>
>
>
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Re: L9 Docs

Tim Taplin
In reply to this post by Tom Parker-16
Tom:

It sounds like you ran into the reference vs copy in assigning temp vars while iterating thru arrays.

Check out the What has Changed Page on the wiki as there is a relatively new page that goes over this.

Glad to hear that you got going on your code. If you need any help wrapping your head around this or some assistance with some code adjustments, let me know. glad to help.

On Jun 28, 2010, at 10:47 PM, Tom Parker wrote:

> In December, I installed Lasso 9 on a Mac from SVN using instructions
> in an article on LassoTech.  With some help from members of the Beta
> list, I was able to get Lasso 9 installed and working (I am normally a
> Windows user so I was even unfamiliar with where the localhost
> directory is on a Mac).  In general, Lasso 9 seems to work very much
> the same as 8.5.  Basic operations like add/update/search etc. work
> the same in 9 as in 8.5 using the same syntax, although I think there
> are entirely different new ways to do them.  I was able to connect to
> a MySQL data source with no trouble.  In fact, the Admin interface is
> very simple and intuitive once you realize you need to expand certain
> tabs from the side.
>
> In my opinion, the main barrier to transitioning from 8.5 to 9 is a
> few "gotchas" related to how certain "tags" behave.  For me, it was
> arrays that finally caused me to throw in the towel.  In one of my
> projects I iterate through a array, referring to positions in the
> array (and a bunch of other stuff), and I never could debug it
> sufficiently so it would work in 9.  It works fine in 8.5 so I
> stubbornly thought it should also work in 9.  Being overly busy, it
> was easy to put that project on hold until a mature documentation set
> (and hopefully more compatible language) was available.  Had It stuck
> with it, I am sure I would have that site working now.  Kyle was very
> responsive and made some changes to Records_Map which fixed one
> problem I was having.
>
> I think it will require more than documentation, however.  In my
> opinion, if even 20 percent of the people on this list were to install
> the developer version and begin trying to get their simplest existing
> Lasso projects to run on it (while discussing it with and helping each
> other), we would achieve a critical mass that could begin to create a
> body of information that would help Steve and Brad populate the
> documentation, and answer questions about what is the highest priority
> for future documentation.  I  think for two guys to write
> documentation in a very static environment would be a difficult task.
> Right now, it appears few people have been willing to take the plunge
> and try Lasso 9.  I suspect many people on this list are better
> programmers than I am (I am an ecologist in real life), and I almost
> have some of my projects working in 9.
>
> In summary, I think the documentation approach is great.  I also think
> participation by as many people as possible is a necessary ingredient.
>
> --Tom Parker
>
> On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 8:44 PM, Douglas Burchard
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Jun 28, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Brad Lindsay wrote:
>>
>>> What do you need to know to be able to test it?  What are the two biggest pieces of documentation that are missing that keeps you from testing it? (I'm asking this to see where you think we need to prioritize getting our documentation up.)
>>
>> I'm an 8.5 developer who would probably be best served with a chapter/page on moving from 8.5 to 9. However, if LS is focussing only on migrating their existing developer base, I'd probably be even better served by learning PHP.
>>
>> A chapter/page on, and an example of, a simple add/update/search/list/detail/delete suite would best serve the needs of the entire Lasso community, both present and future. Then, a list with basic syntax and description of every tag would allow us to expand on our own (just avoid the "see the language guide" type of description).
>>
>>
>> --
>> Douglas Burchard, President
>> DouglasBurchard.com, Web Applications
>> 15024 NE 66th Street
>> Redmond, WA  98052, USA
>>
>> direct: (206) 227-8161
>> [hidden email]
>> http://www.douglasburchard.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
>> Search the list archives: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/Browse/
>> Manage your subscription: http://www.ListSearch.com/Lasso/
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: L9 Docs

Marc Pinnell-3
In reply to this post by James Harvard
+1

On Jun 29, 2010, at 3:20 AM, James Harvard wrote:

> I think part of the problem is that people like me look at some of the L9 code people post here and think "WTF?"



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Re: L9 Docs

Tim Taplin
I thnk that you'll find that at the beginning you will rarely need to write in lasso9 syntax.

As you become more familiar with some of the lasso9 features, you'll find yourself writing some tags in lasso9 and others in lasso8.

if you take the time to clean up any remaining colon syntax, clean up any implicit concat to use plus symbols, and be ready to work with your iteration loops to make sure you dont run into issues with the assign by reference default of lasso9, you'll be impressed with how little code needs migrating or rewriting.

Tim

On Jun 29, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Marc Pinnell wrote:

> +1
>
> On Jun 29, 2010, at 3:20 AM, James Harvard wrote:
>
>> I think part of the problem is that people like me look at some of the L9 code people post here and think "WTF?"
>
>
>
> --
> Marc Pinnell
> 1027 Design
> PO Box 990872
> Redding, CA 96099-0872
> 530.941.4706
> fax: 866.232.5300
> www.1027Design.com
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/SoccerGuy3
>
>
>
>
> --
> This list is a free service of LassoSoft: http://www.LassoSoft.com/
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>


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