FileMaker and Lasso

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FileMaker and Lasso

Brett Circe
I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against  
FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from people  
who use FileMaker with Lasso and why. What benefits do you get? What  
made you decide to use FileMaker with Lasso? Why did you choose Lasso  
to use with FileMaker.

Also, I know there are many tips and tricks out there about using  
FileMaker with Lasso, such as creating layouts with only the fields  
you want to return, doing your calculations in Lasso, and not  
searching related records. I am trying to compile these into a single  
resource similar to what we have on our Lasso for Beginners page.  
Point me to anything you may have in this regard.

Appreciated, thanks.


------------------------------
If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master Class near you!
http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91

------------------------------
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Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

Rick Draper
Hi Brett,

We have been using Lasso with FM for several years, and made the
transition to Lasso from using just CDML essentially for the additional
security and flexibility that the combination of Lasso and FM offered
(we started with 3.6.x).

As a non-developer (but with an engineering / PLC programming
background), FM was identified as our preferred database option because
of its ease of use and web publishing (we are talking FM V 5.0).
Learning CDML was not difficult, and of course this made LDML attractive
as the next progression.

We have a fully M$ network (although we have a couple of Macs for
testing, and my daughter to play with) and contrary to the experiences
often posted on this list, have found the FM / Lasso combination to be
very stable.  We are still running some FMU 5.5 databases on a Windows
NT machine (yes, it's true) and I can't recall when we last had to
restart the FM machines.  We are also running FMSA7 on Windows Server
2003 and were very happy with the increase in speed it gave us over the
old FMU 5.5 / FMU 6 configurations.  Aside from updates, this machine
has never needed to be restarted (touching wood firmly as I type).

As most of our interaction with data has in the past been via the GUI,
with only limited actions via the web (usually just data entry and basic
searches), FM gave us a way for non-developers to deploy new "solutions"
very, very quickly.  Essentially any staff member (non-developers) could
build the database they needed for a project, define what was needed for
web access / interaction.  I would then do the web pages and we would be
up and running very quickly.  Importing data was done through the FM
GUI, and the various FM plug-ins were employed as appropriate to make
life easier.

We have also built a few runtime applications using FM Developer to
allow our clients to gather some data off-line... Handy when the actual
databases are FM.

The first time I ran into the often talked about speed issues were
recently when I needed to iterate through some larger and more complex
data sets and update tables on the fly.  I had to build some [Sleep]
time into the inlines to allow FM to cope with the hammering, and this
tipped me in the direction of MySQL for this solution.... A steep
learning curve underway!!

We have not upgraded to FMSA 8 because we are not certain which way to
step.  Miles and others make good points about the costs, but when you
have a team of non-developers that are creating simple databases, each
so different from the other, FM is still a really simple option - and we
can use our Lasso servers to handle web interaction.  My guess is that
we will upgrade and continue to use FM / Lasso as a combination for our
more traditional uses, and will use Lasso / MySQL for new applications.

Others may want to argue with me here, but in summary, the reasons we
have used FM / Lasso as a combination are:

1. Ease of deployment (non-developers)
2. Already using FM as data source and Lasso was directly compatible
3. Wanted more security and flexibility than available with FM CDML or
Instant Web Publishing
4. Both FM and Lasso have excellent email lists / forums / support
5. Relatively low cost

Very best regards,
 
 
Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Brett Circe
Sent: Thursday, 13 April 2006 9:41 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: FileMaker and Lasso

I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against
FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from people
who use FileMaker with Lasso and why. What benefits do you get? What
made you decide to use FileMaker with Lasso? Why did you choose Lasso to
use with FileMaker.

Also, I know there are many tips and tricks out there about using
FileMaker with Lasso, such as creating layouts with only the fields you
want to return, doing your calculations in Lasso, and not searching
related records. I am trying to compile these into a single resource
similar to what we have on our Lasso for Beginners page.  
Point me to anything you may have in this regard.

Appreciated, thanks.


------------------------------
If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master Class near you!
http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91

------------------------------
Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
Manage your list subscription:  
http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso?manage
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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

Viaduct Productions
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
Hi Rick.

I used to be FSA.  Now when people mention FMP, I say PU, cause of MySQL.

You might want to pick up Dubois, the book on MySQL.  It's a couple
inches of parchment, but once you get into it, you'll see that MySQL is
just a faceless powerhouse.  It's solid, fast, organized, and supported
much more than FMP ever will be.  Your speed issues will disappear, and
you won't think that any job is too big for you.  If it's a job that
challenges MySQL, then the job itself is simply massive, and the timing
issues can be expected from most db's.

With Lasso you can still have FMP built in for LANs, but for pure speed,
nothing will beat a lasso front end over mysql.

Thought I'd provide this info, as you seem to be curious and at a
critical moment.

Cheers


Rick Draper wrote:

> Hi Brett,
>
> We have been using Lasso with FM for several years, and made the
> transition to Lasso from using just CDML essentially for the additional
> security and flexibility that the combination of Lasso and FM offered
> (we started with 3.6.x).
>
> As a non-developer (but with an engineering / PLC programming
> background), FM was identified as our preferred database option because
> of its ease of use and web publishing (we are talking FM V 5.0).
> Learning CDML was not difficult, and of course this made LDML attractive
> as the next progression.
>
> We have a fully M$ network (although we have a couple of Macs for
> testing, and my daughter to play with) and contrary to the experiences
> often posted on this list, have found the FM / Lasso combination to be
> very stable.  We are still running some FMU 5.5 databases on a Windows
> NT machine (yes, it's true) and I can't recall when we last had to
> restart the FM machines.  We are also running FMSA7 on Windows Server
> 2003 and were very happy with the increase in speed it gave us over the
> old FMU 5.5 / FMU 6 configurations.  Aside from updates, this machine
> has never needed to be restarted (touching wood firmly as I type).
>
> As most of our interaction with data has in the past been via the GUI,
> with only limited actions via the web (usually just data entry and basic
> searches), FM gave us a way for non-developers to deploy new "solutions"
> very, very quickly.  Essentially any staff member (non-developers) could
> build the database they needed for a project, define what was needed for
> web access / interaction.  I would then do the web pages and we would be
> up and running very quickly.  Importing data was done through the FM
> GUI, and the various FM plug-ins were employed as appropriate to make
> life easier.
>
> We have also built a few runtime applications using FM Developer to
> allow our clients to gather some data off-line... Handy when the actual
> databases are FM.
>
> The first time I ran into the often talked about speed issues were
> recently when I needed to iterate through some larger and more complex
> data sets and update tables on the fly.  I had to build some [Sleep]
> time into the inlines to allow FM to cope with the hammering, and this
> tipped me in the direction of MySQL for this solution.... A steep
> learning curve underway!!
>
> We have not upgraded to FMSA 8 because we are not certain which way to
> step.  Miles and others make good points about the costs, but when you
> have a team of non-developers that are creating simple databases, each
> so different from the other, FM is still a really simple option - and we
> can use our Lasso servers to handle web interaction.  My guess is that
> we will upgrade and continue to use FM / Lasso as a combination for our
> more traditional uses, and will use Lasso / MySQL for new applications.
>
> Others may want to argue with me here, but in summary, the reasons we
> have used FM / Lasso as a combination are:
>
> 1. Ease of deployment (non-developers)
> 2. Already using FM as data source and Lasso was directly compatible
> 3. Wanted more security and flexibility than available with FM CDML or
> Instant Web Publishing
> 4. Both FM and Lasso have excellent email lists / forums / support
> 5. Relatively low cost
>
> Very best regards,
>  
>  
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Brett Circe
> Sent: Thursday, 13 April 2006 9:41 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: FileMaker and Lasso
>
> I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against
> FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from people
> who use FileMaker with Lasso and why. What benefits do you get? What
> made you decide to use FileMaker with Lasso? Why did you choose Lasso to
> use with FileMaker.
>
> Also, I know there are many tips and tricks out there about using
> FileMaker with Lasso, such as creating layouts with only the fields you
> want to return, doing your calculations in Lasso, and not searching
> related records. I am trying to compile these into a single resource
> similar to what we have on our Lasso for Beginners page.  
> Point me to anything you may have in this regard.
>
> Appreciated, thanks.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master Class near you!
> http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91
>
> ------------------------------
> Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
> Manage your list subscription:  
> http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso?manage
>
>  

------------------------------
If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master Class near you!
http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91

------------------------------
Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
Manage your list subscription:  
http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso?manage
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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

John May-2
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
"I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against
FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from people
who use FileMaker with Lasso and why."

        - John


>Hi Rick.
>
>I used to be FSA.  Now when people mention FMP, I say PU, cause of MySQL.
>You might want to pick up Dubois, the book on MySQL.  It's a couple
>inches of parchment, but once you get into it, you'll see that MySQL
>is just a faceless powerhouse.  It's solid, fast, organized, and
>supported much more than FMP ever will be.  Your speed issues will
>disappear, and you won't think that any job is too big for you.  If
>it's a job that challenges MySQL, then the job itself is simply
>massive, and the timing issues can be expected from most db's.
>With Lasso you can still have FMP built in for LANs, but for pure
>speed, nothing will beat a lasso front end over mysql.
>Thought I'd provide this info, as you seem to be curious and at a
>critical moment.
>
>Cheers
>
>
>Rick Draper wrote:
>>Hi Brett,
>>We have been using Lasso with FM for several years, and made the
>>transition to Lasso from using just CDML essentially for the additional
>>security and flexibility that the combination of Lasso and FM offered
>>(we started with 3.6.x).
>>
>>As a non-developer (but with an engineering / PLC programming
>>background), FM was identified as our preferred database option because
>>of its ease of use and web publishing (we are talking FM V 5.0).
>>Learning CDML was not difficult, and of course this made LDML attractive
>>as the next progression.
>>
>>We have a fully M$ network (although we have a couple of Macs for
>>testing, and my daughter to play with) and contrary to the experiences
>>often posted on this list, have found the FM / Lasso combination to be
>>very stable.  We are still running some FMU 5.5 databases on a Windows
>>NT machine (yes, it's true) and I can't recall when we last had to
>>restart the FM machines.  We are also running FMSA7 on Windows Server
>>2003 and were very happy with the increase in speed it gave us over the
>>old FMU 5.5 / FMU 6 configurations.  Aside from updates, this machine
>>has never needed to be restarted (touching wood firmly as I type).
>>
>>As most of our interaction with data has in the past been via the GUI,
>>with only limited actions via the web (usually just data entry and basic
>>searches), FM gave us a way for non-developers to deploy new "solutions"
>>very, very quickly.  Essentially any staff member (non-developers) could
>>build the database they needed for a project, define what was needed for
>>web access / interaction.  I would then do the web pages and we would be
>>up and running very quickly.  Importing data was done through the FM
>>GUI, and the various FM plug-ins were employed as appropriate to make
>>life easier.
>>
>>We have also built a few runtime applications using FM Developer to
>>allow our clients to gather some data off-line... Handy when the actual
>>databases are FM.
>>
>>The first time I ran into the often talked about speed issues were
>>recently when I needed to iterate through some larger and more complex
>>data sets and update tables on the fly.  I had to build some [Sleep]
>>time into the inlines to allow FM to cope with the hammering, and this
>>tipped me in the direction of MySQL for this solution.... A steep
>>learning curve underway!!
>>
>>We have not upgraded to FMSA 8 because we are not certain which way to
>>step.  Miles and others make good points about the costs, but when you
>>have a team of non-developers that are creating simple databases, each
>>so different from the other, FM is still a really simple option - and we
>>can use our Lasso servers to handle web interaction.  My guess is that
>>we will upgrade and continue to use FM / Lasso as a combination for our
>>more traditional uses, and will use Lasso / MySQL for new applications.
>>
>>Others may want to argue with me here, but in summary, the reasons we
>>have used FM / Lasso as a combination are:
>>
>>1. Ease of deployment (non-developers)
>>2. Already using FM as data source and Lasso was directly compatible
>>3. Wanted more security and flexibility than available with FM CDML or
>>Instant Web Publishing
>>4. Both FM and Lasso have excellent email lists / forums / support
>>5. Relatively low cost
>>
>>Very best regards,
>>   Rick
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>>Behalf Of Brett Circe
>>Sent: Thursday, 13 April 2006 9:41 AM
>>To: [hidden email]
>>Subject: FileMaker and Lasso
>>
>>I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against
>>FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from people
>>who use FileMaker with Lasso and why. What benefits do you get? What
>>made you decide to use FileMaker with Lasso? Why did you choose Lasso to
>>use with FileMaker.
>>
>>Also, I know there are many tips and tricks out there about using
>>FileMaker with Lasso, such as creating layouts with only the fields you
>>want to return, doing your calculations in Lasso, and not searching
>>related records. I am trying to compile these into a single resource
>>similar to what we have on our Lasso for Beginners page.  Point me
>>to anything you may have in this regard.
>>
>>Appreciated, thanks.

--

-------------------------------------------------------------------
John May : President                  <http://www.pointinspace.com>
Point In Space Internet Solutions             [hidden email]

       Professional Lasso / PHP / MySQL / FileMaker Pro Hosting


------------------------------
If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master Class near you!
http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91

------------------------------
Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
Manage your list subscription:  
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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

John Torres-2
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
I am an avid FM/Lasso fan. The main project I work on for the Ohio Dept.of Education, our staff has been using FileMaker for years to keep their records. We finally came to the point about 4 years ago that we needed to make our records easily accessible via the web. After a bit of research, we found that Lasso was the way to go.

Lasso helped us integrate already complex FM solutions easily on our web site. Today we hanlde all of our school, teacher, student, and program registration information on-line via FM/Lasso. Our teachers LOVE it, and our office staff can easily keep up-to-date with data remotely in FM. They never had to learn a new system to manage their data, and have saved an enourmous amount of time with this combination.

FM for us is easy to interface with our educators and students over the web, and we can easily process labels and reports with FM on the back end. I couldn't imagine going to anything else, especially after beeing an ASP/Access programmer!

John Torres
Ohio FFA Association
www.ohioffa.org


---- John May <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> "I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against
> FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from people
> who use FileMaker with Lasso and why."
>
> - John
>
>
> >Hi Rick.
> >
> >I used to be FSA.  Now when people mention FMP, I say PU, cause of MySQL.
> >You might want to pick up Dubois, the book on MySQL.  It's a couple
> >inches of parchment, but once you get into it, you'll see that MySQL
> >is just a faceless powerhouse.  It's solid, fast, organized, and
> >supported much more than FMP ever will be.  Your speed issues will
> >disappear, and you won't think that any job is too big for you.  If
> >it's a job that challenges MySQL, then the job itself is simply
> >massive, and the timing issues can be expected from most db's.
> >With Lasso you can still have FMP built in for LANs, but for pure
> >speed, nothing will beat a lasso front end over mysql.
> >Thought I'd provide this info, as you seem to be curious and at a
> >critical moment.
> >
> >Cheers
> >
> >
> >Rick Draper wrote:
> >>Hi Brett,
> >>We have been using Lasso with FM for several years, and made the
> >>transition to Lasso from using just CDML essentially for the additional
> >>security and flexibility that the combination of Lasso and FM offered
> >>(we started with 3.6.x).
> >>
> >>As a non-developer (but with an engineering / PLC programming
> >>background), FM was identified as our preferred database option because
> >>of its ease of use and web publishing (we are talking FM V 5.0).
> >>Learning CDML was not difficult, and of course this made LDML attractive
> >>as the next progression.
> >>
> >>We have a fully M$ network (although we have a couple of Macs for
> >>testing, and my daughter to play with) and contrary to the experiences
> >>often posted on this list, have found the FM / Lasso combination to be
> >>very stable.  We are still running some FMU 5.5 databases on a Windows
> >>NT machine (yes, it's true) and I can't recall when we last had to
> >>restart the FM machines.  We are also running FMSA7 on Windows Server
> >>2003 and were very happy with the increase in speed it gave us over the
> >>old FMU 5.5 / FMU 6 configurations.  Aside from updates, this machine
> >>has never needed to be restarted (touching wood firmly as I type).
> >>
> >>As most of our interaction with data has in the past been via the GUI,
> >>with only limited actions via the web (usually just data entry and basic
> >>searches), FM gave us a way for non-developers to deploy new "solutions"
> >>very, very quickly.  Essentially any staff member (non-developers) could
> >>build the database they needed for a project, define what was needed for
> >>web access / interaction.  I would then do the web pages and we would be
> >>up and running very quickly.  Importing data was done through the FM
> >>GUI, and the various FM plug-ins were employed as appropriate to make
> >>life easier.
> >>
> >>We have also built a few runtime applications using FM Developer to
> >>allow our clients to gather some data off-line... Handy when the actual
> >>databases are FM.
> >>
> >>The first time I ran into the often talked about speed issues were
> >>recently when I needed to iterate through some larger and more complex
> >>data sets and update tables on the fly.  I had to build some [Sleep]
> >>time into the inlines to allow FM to cope with the hammering, and this
> >>tipped me in the direction of MySQL for this solution.... A steep
> >>learning curve underway!!
> >>
> >>We have not upgraded to FMSA 8 because we are not certain which way to
> >>step.  Miles and others make good points about the costs, but when you
> >>have a team of non-developers that are creating simple databases, each
> >>so different from the other, FM is still a really simple option - and we
> >>can use our Lasso servers to handle web interaction.  My guess is that
> >>we will upgrade and continue to use FM / Lasso as a combination for our
> >>more traditional uses, and will use Lasso / MySQL for new applications.
> >>
> >>Others may want to argue with me here, but in summary, the reasons we
> >>have used FM / Lasso as a combination are:
> >>
> >>1. Ease of deployment (non-developers)
> >>2. Already using FM as data source and Lasso was directly compatible
> >>3. Wanted more security and flexibility than available with FM CDML or
> >>Instant Web Publishing
> >>4. Both FM and Lasso have excellent email lists / forums / support
> >>5. Relatively low cost
> >>
> >>Very best regards,
> >>   Rick
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> >>Behalf Of Brett Circe
> >>Sent: Thursday, 13 April 2006 9:41 AM
> >>To: [hidden email]
> >>Subject: FileMaker and Lasso
> >>
> >>I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against
> >>FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from people
> >>who use FileMaker with Lasso and why. What benefits do you get? What
> >>made you decide to use FileMaker with Lasso? Why did you choose Lasso to
> >>use with FileMaker.
> >>
> >>Also, I know there are many tips and tricks out there about using
> >>FileMaker with Lasso, such as creating layouts with only the fields you
> >>want to return, doing your calculations in Lasso, and not searching
> >>related records. I am trying to compile these into a single resource
> >>similar to what we have on our Lasso for Beginners page.  Point me
> >>to anything you may have in this regard.
> >>
> >>Appreciated, thanks.
>
> --
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> John May : President                  <http://www.pointinspace.com>
> Point In Space Internet Solutions             [hidden email]
>
>        Professional Lasso / PHP / MySQL / FileMaker Pro Hosting
>
>
> ------------------------------
> If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master Class near you!
> http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91
>
> ------------------------------
> Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
> Manage your list subscription:  
> http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso?manage
>
>

------------------------------
If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master Class near you!
http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91

------------------------------
Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
Manage your list subscription:  
http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso?manage
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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

Viaduct Productions
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
I thought that was quoted.

John May wrote:

> "I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against
> FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from people
> who use FileMaker with Lasso and why."
>
>     - John
>
>
>> Hi Rick.
>>
>> I used to be FSA.  Now when people mention FMP, I say PU, cause of
>> MySQL.
>> You might want to pick up Dubois, the book on MySQL.  It's a couple
>> inches of parchment, but once you get into it, you'll see that MySQL
>> is just a faceless powerhouse.  It's solid, fast, organized, and
>> supported much more than FMP ever will be.  Your speed issues will
>> disappear, and you won't think that any job is too big for you.  If
>> it's a job that challenges MySQL, then the job itself is simply
>> massive, and the timing issues can be expected from most db's.
>> With Lasso you can still have FMP built in for LANs, but for pure
>> speed, nothing will beat a lasso front end over mysql.
>> Thought I'd provide this info, as you seem to be curious and at a
>> critical moment.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>> Rick Draper wrote:
>>> Hi Brett,
>>> We have been using Lasso with FM for several years, and made the
>>> transition to Lasso from using just CDML essentially for the additional
>>> security and flexibility that the combination of Lasso and FM offered
>>> (we started with 3.6.x).
>>>
>>> As a non-developer (but with an engineering / PLC programming
>>> background), FM was identified as our preferred database option because
>>> of its ease of use and web publishing (we are talking FM V 5.0).
>>> Learning CDML was not difficult, and of course this made LDML
>>> attractive
>>> as the next progression.
>>>
>>> We have a fully M$ network (although we have a couple of Macs for
>>> testing, and my daughter to play with) and contrary to the experiences
>>> often posted on this list, have found the FM / Lasso combination to be
>>> very stable.  We are still running some FMU 5.5 databases on a Windows
>>> NT machine (yes, it's true) and I can't recall when we last had to
>>> restart the FM machines.  We are also running FMSA7 on Windows Server
>>> 2003 and were very happy with the increase in speed it gave us over the
>>> old FMU 5.5 / FMU 6 configurations.  Aside from updates, this machine
>>> has never needed to be restarted (touching wood firmly as I type).
>>>
>>> As most of our interaction with data has in the past been via the GUI,
>>> with only limited actions via the web (usually just data entry and
>>> basic
>>> searches), FM gave us a way for non-developers to deploy new
>>> "solutions"
>>> very, very quickly.  Essentially any staff member (non-developers)
>>> could
>>> build the database they needed for a project, define what was needed
>>> for
>>> web access / interaction.  I would then do the web pages and we
>>> would be
>>> up and running very quickly.  Importing data was done through the FM
>>> GUI, and the various FM plug-ins were employed as appropriate to make
>>> life easier.
>>>
>>> We have also built a few runtime applications using FM Developer to
>>> allow our clients to gather some data off-line... Handy when the actual
>>> databases are FM.
>>>
>>> The first time I ran into the often talked about speed issues were
>>> recently when I needed to iterate through some larger and more complex
>>> data sets and update tables on the fly.  I had to build some [Sleep]
>>> time into the inlines to allow FM to cope with the hammering, and this
>>> tipped me in the direction of MySQL for this solution.... A steep
>>> learning curve underway!!
>>>
>>> We have not upgraded to FMSA 8 because we are not certain which way to
>>> step.  Miles and others make good points about the costs, but when you
>>> have a team of non-developers that are creating simple databases, each
>>> so different from the other, FM is still a really simple option -
>>> and we
>>> can use our Lasso servers to handle web interaction.  My guess is that
>>> we will upgrade and continue to use FM / Lasso as a combination for our
>>> more traditional uses, and will use Lasso / MySQL for new applications.
>>>
>>> Others may want to argue with me here, but in summary, the reasons we
>>> have used FM / Lasso as a combination are:
>>>
>>> 1. Ease of deployment (non-developers)
>>> 2. Already using FM as data source and Lasso was directly compatible
>>> 3. Wanted more security and flexibility than available with FM CDML or
>>> Instant Web Publishing
>>> 4. Both FM and Lasso have excellent email lists / forums / support
>>> 5. Relatively low cost
>>>
>>> Very best regards,
>>>   Rick
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
>>> Behalf Of Brett Circe
>>> Sent: Thursday, 13 April 2006 9:41 AM
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: FileMaker and Lasso
>>>
>>> I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against
>>> FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from people
>>> who use FileMaker with Lasso and why. What benefits do you get? What
>>> made you decide to use FileMaker with Lasso? Why did you choose
>>> Lasso to
>>> use with FileMaker.
>>>
>>> Also, I know there are many tips and tricks out there about using
>>> FileMaker with Lasso, such as creating layouts with only the fields you
>>> want to return, doing your calculations in Lasso, and not searching
>>> related records. I am trying to compile these into a single resource
>>> similar to what we have on our Lasso for Beginners page.  Point me
>>> to anything you may have in this regard.
>>>
>>> Appreciated, thanks.
>

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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

Duncan S Kincaid
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
almost all our lasso solutions access both mysql and filemaker
databases. that lasso works so well with both is perhaps the single
major selling point for us.
we use mysql exclusively where we can. but in some cases, needed data
is stored in FileMaker databases used by our admin staff (e.g.
applicants to our graduate program are tracked in FileMaker which
allows us to do some very cool auto-email generation, report
generation, statistics, letter-generation, etc etc with minimal
effort.) We have a web site which is predominantly accessing mysql
databases but where needed, accesses the applicant's FileMaker record
so that he can track the progress of his application in real-time.

so i would recommend building solutions with mysql for speed. but where
you've important data that needs to be in FileMaker (as in our case),
lasso is up to the task... so use both!

dk

On Apr 12, 2006, at 7:41 PM, Brett Circe wrote:

> I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against
> FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from people
> who use FileMaker with Lasso and why. What benefits do you get? What
> made you decide to use FileMaker with Lasso? Why did you choose Lasso
> to use with FileMaker.
>
> Also, I know there are many tips and tricks out there about using
> FileMaker with Lasso, such as creating layouts with only the fields
> you want to return, doing your calculations in Lasso, and not
> searching related records. I am trying to compile these into a single
> resource similar to what we have on our Lasso for Beginners page.
> Point me to anything you may have in this regard.
>
> Appreciated, thanks.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso
> Master Class near you!
> http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91
>
> ------------------------------
> Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
> Manage your list subscription:
> http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso?manage


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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

Angelo Luchi
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
Hi Brett -

I have been building Lasso/FileMaker applications for the last 3
years. I started with Lasso 6/FMPU 6. Currently I use Lasso 8.1 and a
combination of FSA7/MySQL.

I went the FileMaker route originally because it was an easy to use
RAD tool. I could build really great work flow applications very
quickly. Then I asked myself, how to bring access to these via web. I
looked at CDML, PHP, and Lasso. At the time CDML was my first choice
and lead to very buggy and un-secure code. Then of course looking to
PHP, but at the time I don't remember seeing any easy way to connect
to FileMaker. So I found Lasso. I ended up learning "LDML" in a matter
of weeks and created a web based scheduling solution. I did see issues
with a single FileMaker Unlimited box powering the whole thing. I
investigated using a RAIC and finally settling on Lasso to pole 3
FileMaker Unlimited boxes for availability. This solution worked very
well for a while but of course as memberships grew and online usage
increased FileMaker was again not holding up. I guess its a good thing
FileMaker released version 7 server! So I migrated the entire solution
to 7 (34 FileMaker 6 databases, 800 Scripts, 536 layouts) into 1 file
(intro to tables). I saw a big increase in web usability.

My current setup consists of two servers: 1 dedicated Lasso/MySQL and
1 FileMaker 7 SA/WPE box. Now, some things I did notice were, in Lasso
it does not see all of my layouts. It only shows me the first 438
layouts. I have added and deleted layouts. When I delete layouts the
number does decrease allowing me to see a newly added layout. Also
there is a big speed issue. My database is really large and complex so
I took the recommended steps and created web only layouts for Lasso to
use. These only consisted of fields that were text/num/date/time. No
related searches, no calc searches, nothing really crazy. I didn't see
much of an increase in speed so I looked at a combination of MySQL and
FileMaker. FileMaker is an integral part of day to day business so it
can't be abandoned. And recreating using another data source is
certainly in the works but will not be available for some time.

I do like creating run time solutions in FileMaker and using MySQL as
a back end. I do syncing via XML import through FileMaker. That works
very well. I have had much luck with that scenario!

I have much smaller e-commerce sites running a FileMaker backend and
those work very well. Still, slower then MySQL, but people can open up
there stores in FileMaker and have an application to manage web
orders. Building those applications takes no time at all. Its an
attractive option for the budget conscience.

Thanks,

Angelo


On 4/13/06, Duncan Kincaid <[hidden email]> wrote:

> almost all our lasso solutions access both mysql and filemaker
> databases. that lasso works so well with both is perhaps the single
> major selling point for us.
> we use mysql exclusively where we can. but in some cases, needed data
> is stored in FileMaker databases used by our admin staff (e.g.
> applicants to our graduate program are tracked in FileMaker which
> allows us to do some very cool auto-email generation, report
> generation, statistics, letter-generation, etc etc with minimal
> effort.) We have a web site which is predominantly accessing mysql
> databases but where needed, accesses the applicant's FileMaker record
> so that he can track the progress of his application in real-time.
>
> so i would recommend building solutions with mysql for speed. but where
> you've important data that needs to be in FileMaker (as in our case),
> lasso is up to the task... so use both!
>
> dk
>
> On Apr 12, 2006, at 7:41 PM, Brett Circe wrote:
>
> > I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against
> > FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from people
> > who use FileMaker with Lasso and why. What benefits do you get? What
> > made you decide to use FileMaker with Lasso? Why did you choose Lasso
> > to use with FileMaker.
> >
> > Also, I know there are many tips and tricks out there about using
> > FileMaker with Lasso, such as creating layouts with only the fields
> > you want to return, doing your calculations in Lasso, and not
> > searching related records. I am trying to compile these into a single
> > resource similar to what we have on our Lasso for Beginners page.
> > Point me to anything you may have in this regard.
> >
> > Appreciated, thanks.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso
> > Master Class near you!
> > http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
> > Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
> > Manage your list subscription:
> > http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso?manage
>
>
> ------------------------------
> If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master Class near you!
> http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91
>
> ------------------------------
> Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
> Manage your list subscription:
> http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso?manage
>

------------------------------
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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

Mikael Sundström
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
I use an FM/lasso combo as that makes it very easy for me to set up a  
backbone of services for our administrative staff, complete with an  
easy-to-use interface. For our wider group of users (students, staff)  
I use web interfaces where lasso comes into its own. 90 percent  
retrieve stuff, 10 % push data into the database(s). As a deployment  
environment this is exactly what we need, and provides excellent  
flexibility, while staying relatively powerful. I would not even  
think of another way of solving my problems but for two major concerns:

1) (least important for us): speed. I think a lot about sessions,  
caches, that sort of thing, in order to optimise performance, where,  
really, I should not need to. Given our server load, it SHOULD be  
fine to just attack the database directly all over the place. But it  
isn't.

2) Far far far more serious: stability issues. I use FMSA7 (on the  
verge of upgrading to 8) and the web companion keels over regularly.  
We have written a cron-script to check for dead services, and the  
restart the web companion, but come on! It just should not ever fall  
over. Occasionally FMSA itself falls over, which is even worse. I  
cannot pin down any specific reason, and FM hides behind a truly  
idiotic "we need to remove lasso from the equation" argument, even  
though lasso just speaks xml with FM, and no form of XML gibberish,  
however malevolent, should have the power to crash the application  
itself.

If those two concerns would be removed, I would not even cast a  
glance at another way of doing things, as the combo fits the bill  
just so.

/Mike


13 apr 2006 kl. 15.45 skrev Duncan Kincaid:

> almost all our lasso solutions access both mysql and filemaker  
> databases. that lasso works so well with both is perhaps the single  
> major selling point for us.
> we use mysql exclusively where we can. but in some cases, needed  
> data is stored in FileMaker databases used by our admin staff (e.g.  
> applicants to our graduate program are tracked in FileMaker which  
> allows us to do some very cool auto-email generation, report  
> generation, statistics, letter-generation, etc etc with minimal  
> effort.) We have a web site which is predominantly accessing mysql  
> databases but where needed, accesses the applicant's FileMaker  
> record so that he can track the progress of his application in real-
> time.
>
> so i would recommend building solutions with mysql for speed. but  
> where you've important data that needs to be in FileMaker (as in  
> our case), lasso is up to the task... so use both!
>
> dk
>
> On Apr 12, 2006, at 7:41 PM, Brett Circe wrote:
>
>> I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against  
>> FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from  
>> people who use FileMaker with Lasso and why. What benefits do you  
>> get? What made you decide to use FileMaker with Lasso? Why did you  
>> choose Lasso to use with FileMaker.
>>
>> Also, I know there are many tips and tricks out there about using  
>> FileMaker with Lasso, such as creating layouts with only the  
>> fields you want to return, doing your calculations in Lasso, and  
>> not searching related records. I am trying to compile these into a  
>> single resource similar to what we have on our Lasso for Beginners  
>> page. Point me to anything you may have in this regard.
>>
>> Appreciated, thanks.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a  
>> Lasso Master Class near you!
>> http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
>> Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
>> Manage your list subscription: http://www.listsearch.com/ 
>> lassotalk.lasso?manage
>
>
> ------------------------------
> If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a  
> Lasso Master Class near you!
> http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91
>
> ------------------------------
> Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
> Manage your list subscription:  http://www.listsearch.com/ 
> lassotalk.lasso?manage

--------------------------------------------------
Mikael Sundström
Ph D | Webmaster
Department of Political Science
Lund University
Lund
Sweden

tel. +46 46 2224993 | +46 705 811703
fax. +46 46 2224006
e-mail: [hidden email]
--------------------------------------------------


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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

John May-2
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
Update to FMSA8 and you should definitely see stability increases.
I'd still keep your monitor script running though - nothing's perfect
it seems...

        - John


>I use an FM/lasso combo as that makes it very easy for me to set up
>a backbone of services for our administrative staff, complete with
>an easy-to-use interface. For our wider group of users (students,
>staff) I use web interfaces where lasso comes into its own. 90
>percent retrieve stuff, 10 % push data into the database(s). As a
>deployment environment this is exactly what we need, and provides
>excellent flexibility, while staying relatively powerful. I would
>not even think of another way of solving my problems but for two
>major concerns:
>
>1) (least important for us): speed. I think a lot about sessions,
>caches, that sort of thing, in order to optimise performance, where,
>really, I should not need to. Given our server load, it SHOULD be
>fine to just attack the database directly all over the place. But it
>isn't.
>
>2) Far far far more serious: stability issues. I use FMSA7 (on the
>verge of upgrading to 8) and the web companion keels over regularly.
>We have written a cron-script to check for dead services, and the
>restart the web companion, but come on! It just should not ever fall
>over. Occasionally FMSA itself falls over, which is even worse. I
>cannot pin down any specific reason, and FM hides behind a truly
>idiotic "we need to remove lasso from the equation" argument, even
>though lasso just speaks xml with FM, and no form of XML gibberish,
>however malevolent, should have the power to crash the application
>itself.
>
>If those two concerns would be removed, I would not even cast a
>glance at another way of doing things, as the combo fits the bill
>just so.
>
>/Mike
>
>
>13 apr 2006 kl. 15.45 skrev Duncan Kincaid:
>
>>almost all our lasso solutions access both mysql and filemaker
>>databases. that lasso works so well with both is perhaps the single
>>major selling point for us.
>>we use mysql exclusively where we can. but in some cases, needed
>>data is stored in FileMaker databases used by our admin staff (e.g.
>>applicants to our graduate program are tracked in FileMaker which
>>allows us to do some very cool auto-email generation, report
>>generation, statistics, letter-generation, etc etc with minimal
>>effort.) We have a web site which is predominantly accessing mysql
>>databases but where needed, accesses the applicant's FileMaker
>>record so that he can track the progress of his application in
>>real-time.
>>
>>so i would recommend building solutions with mysql for speed. but
>>where you've important data that needs to be in FileMaker (as in
>>our case), lasso is up to the task... so use both!
>>
>>dk
>>
>>On Apr 12, 2006, at 7:41 PM, Brett Circe wrote:
>>
>>>I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against
>>>FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from
>>>people who use FileMaker with Lasso and why. What benefits do you
>>>get? What made you decide to use FileMaker with Lasso? Why did you
>>>choose Lasso to use with FileMaker.
>>>
>>>Also, I know there are many tips and tricks out there about using
>>>FileMaker with Lasso, such as creating layouts with only the
>>>fields you want to return, doing your calculations in Lasso, and
>>>not searching related records. I am trying to compile these into a
>>>single resource similar to what we have on our Lasso for Beginners
>>>page. Point me to anything you may have in this regard.
>>>
>>>Appreciated, thanks.

--

-------------------------------------------------------------------
John May : President                  <http://www.pointinspace.com>
Point In Space Internet Solutions             [hidden email]

       Professional Lasso / PHP / MySQL / FileMaker Pro Hosting


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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

Doug Noble
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
On 4/12/06 7:41 PM, "Brett Circe" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against
> FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from people
> who use FileMaker with Lasso and why. What benefits do you get? What
> made you decide to use FileMaker with Lasso? Why did you choose Lasso
> to use with FileMaker.

Brette, we have been developing with FM and Lasso since 1997 since we
published our first MacTalent.com searchable database on the web. And I've
been using Filemaker since it was called Nutshell in the early 90s. It is
the ease of use that is the key for me. The fact that I can develop a
solution that is useful for both web and desktop. We did a project a few
years ago for a location scout that wanted to publish a searchable CD ROM of
photos, and we also published on the web. The web interface was much easier
than the CD ROM, thanks to Lasso! (Try displaying a found set of photos
three across and three down in Filemaker, you will see it takes a lot more
coding than Lasso does!) But the fact that we were able to make a run-time
Filemaker solution for the CD using the exact same database was what
clinched it for us. It allowed the client to continue adding data online
through an admin page, and then using the updated database to publish new
CDs every few months.

Today I know that I am able to create a database in Filemaker, share it with
a customer so they can make changes, and then publish on the web using the
same files. The fact that then customer can build desktop applications
sharing that file is very convenient. They can have an interface that looks
pretty, while we build an alternate layout for the web that is fast. Our
customers are mostly small businesses and not sophisticated programmers, and
I am not a programmer either. I am a marketing writer/dekstop publisher
turned web designer. I have Filemaker experts on hand to do the tricky
scripts when needed. Filemaker fills the bill for us, and Lasso allows us to
make the transition to the web.

I am now trying to learn the basics of MySQL so we can support hosting
clients, and am having a hard time with the concept of a faceless database.
I have a two inch think MySQL book in front of me, and it reminds me that I
built my first Filemaker database without looking at the manual at all!
After Filemaker's easy to use interface, MySQL is an alien concept to us. I
am thankful to Miles and Doug Gentry for taking time at the Lasso Summit to
give me some insight into how to get started with MySQL.  I am excited with
the idea of the speed of MySQL for some applications, but we will continue
to use Filemaker for many projects where there is a desktop component to be
considered. We welcome any guides that Omnipilot can put together to help us
do a better job.

--
Doug Noble
ADWEB Services Inc.
[hidden email]


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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

Jussi Hirvi
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
Mikael Sundström ([hidden email]) kirjoitteli (13.4.2006
17:47):
> 2) Far far far more serious: stability issues. I use FMSA7 (on the
> verge of upgrading to 8) and the web companion keels over regularly.
> We have written a cron-script to check for dead services, and the
> restart the web companion, but come on! It just should not ever fall
> over.

For a while ago we had FMP4 fall down from time to time, and found out that
there was a search form which with certain form settings sent a "-findall"
query (with -MaxRecords set to "all") to a db of >10 thousand records. FMP
couldn't handle that at all. So simple. :-)

- Jussi Hirvi

--
Jussi Hirvi * Green Spot
Topeliuksenkatu 15 C * 00250 Helsinki * Finland
Tel. & fax +358-9-493 981
Mobile +358-40-771 2098 (only text messages)
[hidden email] * http://www.greenspot.fi/


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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

Detlef Hebbel-2
In reply to this post by Brett Circe

> I know there are vocal people on the list who recommend against
> FileMaker. But for this discussion, I'd like to hear only from people
> who use FileMaker with Lasso and why. What benefits do you get? What
> made you decide to use FileMaker with Lasso? Why did you choose Lasso
> to use with FileMaker.
>

My experience as a non programmer:

I have been using FileMaker for many years too and it gave me as a "non
trained coder" nor "programmer" the opportunity to put together innovative
desktop and online solutions for the very demanding medium size business
markets which have normally little budgets.

The combination of FileMaker with Lasso is just great. Being more than 20
years in Solution Sales as well as in Marketing it was always important for
my solutions to have a full featured GUI for my client but also online
functionality.

I my opinion, when it comes to "Hybrids" between DeskTop and Online
Application the FileMaker Lasso combination is just great.

Also as a non-coder, but more on the lateral business solution area which
involves normal users and not IT specialists small application are fast to
develop and to deploy.

I have also out contracted other projects which use MySQL and WebObjects as
I was afraid I am missing out on the on the great features of MySQL.
However, when it comes the the result of those applications I see "from my
point of view "a lack of GUI and user oriented features". This is probably
why some of the non FileMaker supporter are so keen on "AJAX'. I would say,
while FileMaker is a very good tool for Business Application Development,
MySQL is more the "Must Have Tool" for a real programmer.

Taking into consideration that FileMaker is an innovative product, there
will be many more features coming and make it even more versatile as a
hybrid or online application.

Summary:
For me personally, when it comes to a feature reach business application for
my clients, the combination of FileMaker and Lasso works just great without
having in-depth coding knowledge or lack of programming background.

Of course, there are so many idealistic arguments as well: "What is better,
the Benz or the BMW?"

Your question:
> What made you decide to use FileMaker with Lasso? Why did you choose Lasso
> to use with FileMaker.

My answer:
1. Because I (and my clients) like the combination of FileMaker and Lasso.
2. Great combination between desktop and online application.
3. Easy, fast development and program changes.
4. Easy learning curve
5. The result of the finished application GUI is great.
6. I do not know to code MySQL :)
7. FileMaker has a future (hopefully)

Cheers

Detlef





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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

Doug Noble
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
on 4/13/06 7:12 PM, Detlef Hebbel at [hidden email] wrote:

> I have also out contracted other projects which use MySQL and WebObjects as
> I was afraid I am missing out on the on the great features of MySQL.
> However, when it comes the the result of those applications I see "from my
> point of view "a lack of GUI and user oriented features". This is probably
> why some of the non FileMaker supporter are so keen on "AJAX'. I would say,
> while FileMaker is a very good tool for Business Application Development,
> MySQL is more the "Must Have Tool" for a real programmer.

Detlef and I are on the same wavelength here. From the point of view of
doing things that benefit Omnipilot - creating promotional campaign and the
learning tools for introducing people to FMP and Lasso seems a smart move.

The target is people like myself who are somewhat technical - I used to be a
product manager in high tech - but have no formal programming background, or
desire to go that route. Filemaker and Lasso have a "reasonable" learning
curve that I can tackle, knowing I can put something together fast and there
is more power than I will ever utilize if I am building my own solution.
Whereas I just would not know where to start with PHP and MySQL.

I would say that I find the current Lasso docs a bit intimidating even as a
longtime Lasso 3.6 user, so there is a long way to go here. I could not even
find the employee example in the 8.1 download, perhaps I missed something.

Now if I were a "real programmer" I would not be intimidated by PHP and
since PHP and MySQL are often considered ideal partners, I would have to be
convinced to spend the money on Lasso as opposed to the free PHP. I know
there are many great arguments for Lasso here, but that is not the subject
of this thread :)

There are lots of people similar to me that could become heroes for their
company by implementing a FMP/Lasso solution themselves, as opposed to
having to put in a request to the IT dept to do it for them.

What does this mean? I would say that promoting a FMP/Lasso "package"
separate from a Lasso/MySQL package might allow the tech writers to develop
docs and demos that target the audience rather than confuse them. I am NOT
saying that the products be different, I don't want to discourage
exploration of MySQL (or Filemaker), just make it easy to learn.

Doug Noble
[hidden email]



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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

m i l e s-4
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
Doug,

I have to chime in here, and no folks, this is not the same rant....

 >Now if I were a "real programmer" I would not be intimidated by PHP  
and
 >since PHP and MySQL are often considered ideal partners, I would  
have to be
 >convinced to spend the money on Lasso as opposed to the free PHP. I  
know
 >there are many great arguments for Lasso here, but that is not the  
subject
 >of this thread :)

You know Doug I respect your thoughts and your contributions however  
its thinking like that above that makes my job really really really  
hard.

You imply that Lasso is NOT a programming language.  When in fact it  
is by definition a 'scripting
language'.  Furthermore the Lasso of today is not what it was 8 years  
ago, far from it.  While it retains the basic language structure, it  
is far more robust and has so many uses and capabilities (you should  
really see what 8.5 is capable of folks, get in on the beta!), that  
it hardly warrants the name Lasso anymore.  About the only thing that  
the lasso of today resembles of the lasso of yesterday (aside from  
what Ive already mentioned) is the people who are still here from  
those days.  Other than that, its a wholly different animal Doug. In  
short Lasso is not just a scripting language but application server  
and development platform in its own right!  And the sooner that this  
thought gets into the developers head, the clients head, and even OPs  
head, the happier I'll be.  It just makes my job of selling the  
platform that much easier if I can simply say to a client, "Lasso ?  
Its a development platform that will allow me to actualize your  
website and data".

PHP on the other hand is in the same category as Lasso, as is .NET  
(ASP), as well as ColdFusion, as is RubyOnRails, etc....

I take issue when someone refers to me as a 'programmer', while I  
find this a form a flattery, I do correct someone when they apply  
that lable to me.  I am a web developer, not a programmer.  
Programmers are in my mind, the exceedingly creative and brilliant  
individuals build DESKTOP LEVEL APPLICATIONS.   I build web  
applications, and therefore there is a clear distinction between the  
two.  Identifying me as a 'programmer' implies that I have the  
necessary skill level to build said desktop level application.  I  
do.  But I don't chose to resource my energy that way.

That said...

This has been a most enlightening thread, and thank you to Brett for  
bringing it up.  I wish I had thought of it myself.  It does bring to  
light two very interesting movements which I have held and publicly  
stated quite frequently, that more and more people are moving away  
from FMP as a web tool and into MySQL for obvious reasons.  And  
secondly, that FMP is a good tool for limited applications and  
deployments.

M i l e s.

------------------------------
If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master Class near you!
http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91

------------------------------
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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

Detlef Hebbel-2
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
Miles:

You are a web developer with programming knowledge.
Maybe you are a Software Architect.
I am a web developer without programming knowledge.
Maybe I am a Software Architect.

We have different backgrounds. However, the result, the finished product is
the important stuff!

I guess there are different people, different tools, different markets,
different philosophies, different likes, different databases.

There is not one market, there is not one people! We like the choice.

Isn't it nice that Lasso can do with MySQL and also with FileMaker! We
should celebrate this fact.

Cheers

Detlef



on 14/4/06 3:27 PM, m i l e s at [hidden email] wrote:

> Doug,
>
> I have to chime in here, and no folks, this is not the same rant....
>
>> Now if I were a "real programmer" I would not be intimidated by PHP
> and
>> since PHP and MySQL are often considered ideal partners, I would
> have to be
>> convinced to spend the money on Lasso as opposed to the free PHP. I
> know
>> there are many great arguments for Lasso here, but that is not the
> subject
>> of this thread :)
>
> You know Doug I respect your thoughts and your contributions however
> its thinking like that above that makes my job really really really
> hard.
>
> You imply that Lasso is NOT a programming language.  When in fact it
> is by definition a 'scripting
> language'.  Furthermore the Lasso of today is not what it was 8 years
> ago, far from it.  While it retains the basic language structure, it
> is far more robust and has so many uses and capabilities (you should
> really see what 8.5 is capable of folks, get in on the beta!), that
> it hardly warrants the name Lasso anymore.  About the only thing that
> the lasso of today resembles of the lasso of yesterday (aside from
> what Ive already mentioned) is the people who are still here from
> those days.  Other than that, its a wholly different animal Doug. In
> short Lasso is not just a scripting language but application server
> and development platform in its own right!  And the sooner that this
> thought gets into the developers head, the clients head, and even OPs
> head, the happier I'll be.  It just makes my job of selling the
> platform that much easier if I can simply say to a client, "Lasso ?
> Its a development platform that will allow me to actualize your
> website and data".
>
> PHP on the other hand is in the same category as Lasso, as is .NET
> (ASP), as well as ColdFusion, as is RubyOnRails, etc....
>
> I take issue when someone refers to me as a 'programmer', while I
> find this a form a flattery, I do correct someone when they apply
> that lable to me.  I am a web developer, not a programmer.
> Programmers are in my mind, the exceedingly creative and brilliant
> individuals build DESKTOP LEVEL APPLICATIONS.   I build web
> applications, and therefore there is a clear distinction between the
> two.  Identifying me as a 'programmer' implies that I have the
> necessary skill level to build said desktop level application.  I
> do.  But I don't chose to resource my energy that way.
>
> That said...
>
> This has been a most enlightening thread, and thank you to Brett for
> bringing it up.  I wish I had thought of it myself.  It does bring to
> light two very interesting movements which I have held and publicly
> stated quite frequently, that more and more people are moving away
> from FMP as a web tool and into MySQL for obvious reasons.  And
> secondly, that FMP is a good tool for limited applications and
> deployments.
>
> M i l e s.
>
> ------------------------------
> If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master
> Class near you!
> http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91
>
> ------------------------------
> Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
> Manage your list subscription:
> http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso?manage
>



------------------------------
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http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91

------------------------------
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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

Detlef Hebbel-2
In reply to this post by Brett Circe

> that more and more people are moving away
> from FMP as a web tool and into MySQL for obvious reasons.  And
> secondly, that FMP is a good tool for limited applications and
> deployments.
>
Miles:
Is this wishful thinking above? I think you are so on the wrong foot with
that. I guess this is your personal believe and probably also the personal
believe of many other. But there is more ...

 - On one hand, Tools and databases are getting much easier to use for non
"Web Developer". On the lower-end see for example "RapidWeaver" for easy
static pages with a reasonable look. Many business people in small and
medium businesses are now able are now able to create Web Sites. This trend
will also follow within the area of Online Applications including databases.
FileMaker's easy scripting and online publishing, I would say, it is just an
early example of this trend. The time will tell. Even if it gives only half
of the SQL features.

 - On the other hand, coding and programming (and Web development) gets more
specialised and more complicated and needs specialist Web Developers with
in-depth knowledge like you. People who understand programming.

I do not understand MySQL and I do not want to. I do not want to code, I
want to provide tailor-made business applications with easy tools. And I am
happy to pay for those tools. Also, I think there is a huge emerging market
for Easy Application Development Tools.

But I find it wrong to always argue against FileMaker! Who or what bit you:)

I acknowledge that I do not have your expertise in "Web development coding",
but I have in Solutions at user level. At the end it is the finished
product, customer satisfaction, fun and our client's productivity gain.

Give my FileMaker, I ca do it.
Give me MySQL, I couldn't do it.

Cheers

Detlef




------------------------------
If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master Class near you!
http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91

------------------------------
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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

m i l e s-4
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
Detlef,

I appreciate your viewpoint and value your input.

 >But I find it wrong to always argue against FileMaker! Who or what  
bit you:)

FileMaker.

And I don't always argue against it.  Remember I come from an FMP world.

That said...

Let's move this and take the conversation private so that others can  
share their FMP experiences or just drop the matter all together Detlef.

And for the record.  I think that FMP is a valuable tool in its own  
right.  I just have very very very (one more time with feeling) VERY  
strong (and valid) viewpoints on FMPs *MANY* shortcomings.  Let's  
drop it here please.

My apologies to everyone for chiming into this discussion.

I am keenly wanting to hear your stories and responses to Brett's  
VERY important question.

Sincerely,

His Royal Milesness.

(giggle)

------------------------------
If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master Class near you!
http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91

------------------------------
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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

Detlef Hebbel-2
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
Miles, this is in no way personal and one cannot lobby to hide issues like
that. It is vital for all FileMaker / Lasso developers who are not MySQL
savvy and in the same position like me and also are not the top contributors
on this list. I have the feeling that many like me are ducking-in when it
comes to discussions like that or not even participate in the list because
of obvious reasons. That is very unfortunate because the list must stay open
for all Lasso users, not only for the 'outspoken',  even when the fortunate
MySQL specialists or sometimes self appointed 'highnesses' (...giggle) make
us a bit shy :)

Cheers

Detlef


on 14/4/06 3:27 PM, m i l e s at [hidden email] wrote:

> Doug,
>
> I have to chime in here, and no folks, this is not the same rant....
>
>> Now if I were a "real programmer" I would not be intimidated by PHP
> and
>> since PHP and MySQL are often considered ideal partners, I would
> have to be
>> convinced to spend the money on Lasso as opposed to the free PHP. I
> know
>> there are many great arguments for Lasso here, but that is not the
> subject
>> of this thread :)
>
> You know Doug I respect your thoughts and your contributions however
> its thinking like that above that makes my job really really really
> hard.
>
> You imply that Lasso is NOT a programming language.  When in fact it
> is by definition a 'scripting
> language'.  Furthermore the Lasso of today is not what it was 8 years
> ago, far from it.  While it retains the basic language structure, it
> is far more robust and has so many uses and capabilities (you should
> really see what 8.5 is capable of folks, get in on the beta!), that
> it hardly warrants the name Lasso anymore.  About the only thing that
> the lasso of today resembles of the lasso of yesterday (aside from
> what Ive already mentioned) is the people who are still here from
> those days.  Other than that, its a wholly different animal Doug. In
> short Lasso is not just a scripting language but application server
> and development platform in its own right!  And the sooner that this
> thought gets into the developers head, the clients head, and even OPs
> head, the happier I'll be.  It just makes my job of selling the
> platform that much easier if I can simply say to a client, "Lasso ?
> Its a development platform that will allow me to actualize your
> website and data".
>
> PHP on the other hand is in the same category as Lasso, as is .NET
> (ASP), as well as ColdFusion, as is RubyOnRails, etc....
>
> I take issue when someone refers to me as a 'programmer', while I
> find this a form a flattery, I do correct someone when they apply
> that lable to me.  I am a web developer, not a programmer.
> Programmers are in my mind, the exceedingly creative and brilliant
> individuals build DESKTOP LEVEL APPLICATIONS.   I build web
> applications, and therefore there is a clear distinction between the
> two.  Identifying me as a 'programmer' implies that I have the
> necessary skill level to build said desktop level application.  I
> do.  But I don't chose to resource my energy that way.
>
> That said...
>
> This has been a most enlightening thread, and thank you to Brett for
> bringing it up.  I wish I had thought of it myself.  It does bring to
> light two very interesting movements which I have held and publicly
> stated quite frequently, that more and more people are moving away
> from FMP as a web tool and into MySQL for obvious reasons.  And
> secondly, that FMP is a good tool for limited applications and
> deployments.
>
> M i l e s.
>
> ------------------------------
> If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master
> Class near you!
> http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91
>
> ------------------------------
> Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
> Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
> Manage your list subscription:
> http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso?manage
>



------------------------------
If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master Class near you!
http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91

------------------------------
Lasso Support: http://support.omnipilot.com/
Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
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Re: FileMaker and Lasso

m i l e s-4
In reply to this post by Brett Circe
Detlef,

Again let's take this private, please.  I do not want to dominate  
this with a philosophical issue of which is better, Brett  
specifically asked for that NOT to happen.

That said....please don't mistake my want to stop this rather  
important philosophical issue with what other people have to say.

Let's drop it here or start another thread...but I really want to  
what other people have to say.

M i l e s.

(I was kidding about the highness part...honest)

------------------------------
If you missed the Summit, you can still learn from the best at a Lasso Master Class near you!
http://www.omnipilot.com/id.lasso?tid=91

------------------------------
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Search the list archives: http://www.listsearch.com/lassotalk.lasso
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