Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

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Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Greg Willits
I'm trying to find evidence that IE Mac 5.2 on OS 9 or X is even  
worth worrying about...So far I have found none.

I've looked up stats all over the place and even asked large Mac  
specific sites (not enough responses yet)--so far I've found no  
evidence that IE Mac 5.2 is at all in common use anymore. Unless  
someone here can cough up stats that say otherwise, I'd lump IE 5.2  
right in there with Nav 4.7. It's dead, there's nothing more to see  
here people, move along.

I'm surmising that the majority of this alleged 50% of OS 9 in use is  
in DTP/audio production and other such cases where those machines are  
not used for browsing. I can't find evidence that OS 9 even registers  
in browser stats.

If you have stats that say 5.2 or OS 9 is worth worrying about, I'd  
like to know (please state your site's content and target audience  
for perspective as well).

-- greg

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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Brett Harvey
Greg,

May school districts here in MN are still on OS 9 which used Mac IE
5.2.  Not the business computers, but the educational ones. Two of
the largest districts are still using it heavily. However, that said,
those districts know that the computers can't access many websites
because of the old browsers being used.

I have one client that's hits are 45% PC IE, 55% mac of which 30% of
that is IE 5.2.

Brett


>I'm trying to find evidence that IE Mac 5.2 on OS 9 or X is even
>worth worrying about...So far I have found none.
>
>I've looked up stats all over the place and even asked large Mac
>specific sites (not enough responses yet)--so far I've found no
>evidence that IE Mac 5.2 is at all in common use anymore. Unless
>someone here can cough up stats that say otherwise, I'd lump IE 5.2
>right in there with Nav 4.7. It's dead, there's nothing more to see
>here people, move along.
>
>I'm surmising that the majority of this alleged 50% of OS 9 in use
>is in DTP/audio production and other such cases where those machines
>are not used for browsing. I can't find evidence that OS 9 even
>registers in browser stats.
>
>If you have stats that say 5.2 or OS 9 is worth worrying about, I'd
>like to know (please state your site's content and target audience
>for perspective as well).
>
>-- greg
>
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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Robert Carpenter
In reply to this post by Greg Willits
Anecdotally, I have several users here in our ~100 mac user office that
strongly prefer IE5 over Safari, for a variety of reasons ("it works
better!", "it's more like what I have at home!", etc).

Statistically speaking, below is a list of all IE5.x browsers with >1% usage
(within the IE5.x group) on my most popular domain over the past year. So,
of the 7.62% of my visitors that are using IE5, it looks like around half of
those are using it on a Mac...anyone know the final version IE5/Mac/OS9
versus IE5/Mac/OSX? I know that on my 10.3.9 machine, I've got IE5.2.3,
which is - ughh! - 165k hits in the past year or so. My copy of IE5 in
classic is listed as v5.0 (2022), which is clocking in at 94k hits below.
Ughh. (back of napkin calc shows that I'm getting about 12-14 hits/visit
over this period).

13.30%    165,531    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.23; Mac_PowerPC)
8.30%    103,307    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.22; Mac_PowerPC)
7.63%    94,964    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Mac_PowerPC)
7.37%    91,767    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0)
6.28%    78,154    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0)
5.49%    68,410    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98; Win 9x
4.90)    
4.69%    58,432    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.17; Mac_PowerPC)
4.37%    54,350    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98)
4.20%    52,320    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt)
2.78%    34,587    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0;
T312461)    
2.75%    34,214    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.16; Mac_PowerPC)
2.08%    25,869    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 4.0)
1.88%    23,398    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 95)
1.88%    23,384    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.14; Mac_PowerPC)
1.55%    19,350    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.21; Mac_PowerPC)
1.53%    19,093    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98)
0.82%    10,249    Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.13; Mac_PowerPC)


> From: Greg Willits <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: <[hidden email]>
> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:33:40 -0700
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers
>
> I'm trying to find evidence that IE Mac 5.2 on OS 9 or X is even
> worth worrying about...So far I have found none.
>
> I've looked up stats all over the place and even asked large Mac
> specific sites (not enough responses yet)--so far I've found no
> evidence that IE Mac 5.2 is at all in common use anymore. Unless
> someone here can cough up stats that say otherwise, I'd lump IE 5.2
> right in there with Nav 4.7. It's dead, there's nothing more to see
> here people, move along.
>
> I'm surmising that the majority of this alleged 50% of OS 9 in use is
> in DTP/audio production and other such cases where those machines are
> not used for browsing. I can't find evidence that OS 9 even registers
> in browser stats.
>
> If you have stats that say 5.2 or OS 9 is worth worrying about, I'd
> like to know (please state your site's content and target audience
> for perspective as well).
>
> -- greg
>
> --
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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Wade Maxfield
In reply to this post by Greg Willits
>I'm trying to find evidence that IE Mac 5.2 on
>OS 9 or X is even worth worrying about...So far
>I have found none.
>
>I've looked up stats all over the place and even
>asked large Mac specific sites (not enough
>responses yet)--so far I've found no evidence
>that IE Mac 5.2 is at all in common use anymore.
>Unless someone here can cough up stats that say
>otherwise, I'd lump IE 5.2 right in there with
>Nav 4.7. It's dead, there's nothing more to see
>here people, move along.
>
>I'm surmising that the majority of this alleged
>50% of OS 9 in use is in DTP/audio production
>and other such cases where those machines are
>not used for browsing. I can't find evidence
>that OS 9 even registers in browser stats.
>
>If you have stats that say 5.2 or OS 9 is worth
>worrying about, I'd like to know (please state
>your site's content and target audience for
>perspective as well).
>
>-- greg
>

For what it's worth:

Fine Art auctioneers site, 76,900 page views in
June 2005. 9.9% of all page views were mac based

As a percentage of just mac visitors:
IE 5.0 ‰ 2.8%
IE 5.1 ‰ 13.5%
IE 5.2 ‰ 11.4%
Netscape 5 ‰ 66.5%
Netscape 7 ‰ 1.3%
Opera 6 ‰ 4.2%


Read into it what you will 8)

  - Wade

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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Fletcher Sandbeck
In reply to this post by Greg Willits
On 7/25/05 at 3:15 PM by [hidden email] (Wade Maxfield):

>For what it's worth:
>
>Fine Art auctioneers site, 76,900 page views in
>June 2005. 9.9% of all page views were mac based
>
>As a percentage of just mac visitors:
>IE 5.0 ≈ 2.8%
>IE 5.1 ≈ 13.5%
>IE 5.2 ≈ 11.4%
>Netscape 5 ≈ 66.5%
>Netscape 7 ≈ 1.3%
>Opera 6 ≈ 4.2%

One thing to keep in mind is how your web stat software assembles these statistics.  The browser type strings are very complex so some heuristics need to be used.  For example, the identifier for Safari on my machine is shown below.

Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/412.6 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/412.2

The heuristic will usually look for different unique identifier strings.  For example "Safari", "Firefox", or "Opera", but it might also look for "Gecko", "KHTML", etc.  Depending on what order the strings are read the above browser could be misidentified as a "Gecko" browser (and the platform could be presumed as Linux).

The primary identifier in the string is "Mozilla/5.0".  I would guess most heuristics would fall back on this if they couldn't extract more relevant info from the remainder of the string.  Thus, if the heuristic hadn't been programmed to look for Safari the above browser would be reported as Netscape 5.  Firefox comes out similarly.

Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050716 Firefox/1.0.6
 
Actually, looking at a few more strings it seems the final identifier is usually most accurate.  At least until you look at an IE string like that below.  (This string also points out the difficulty of identifying platform since you have to look for "Macintosh", "Mac OS X", or "Mac_PowerPC" as possible identifers).

Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.23; Mac_PowerPC)

Anyway, I'd be a little suspicous of any report that breaks out the various version of IE, but doesn't bother to break out Firefox and Safari.

[fletcher]
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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Greg Willits

On 25 Jul 2005, at 05:45, Fletcher Sandbeck wrote:

> The heuristic will usually look for different unique identifier  
> strings.  For example "Safari", "Firefox", or "Opera", but it might  
> also look for "Gecko", "KHTML", etc.  Depending on what order the  
> strings are read the above browser could be misidentified as a  
> "Gecko" browser (and the platform could be presumed as Linux).

I'd agree with Fletcher on this, it's pretty difficult to separate  
out these things - NetCraft, who do the surveys of web servers, lump  
any Apache server in the "Apache" platform category (but they  
separate out "Macintosh" specific servers).

Greg:
> I'm surmising that the majority of this alleged 50% of OS 9 in use  
> is in DTP/audio production and other such cases where those  
> machines are not used for browsing. I can't find evidence that OS 9  
> even registers in browser stats.

The 50% figure is Apple's, that's what was said by Steve Jobs at the  
last WWDC (May 2005) "We've arrived". I've got no idea who is out  
there using it - but consider that something like 50% of the Macs in  
use have been sold in the past three years (Apple reckons something  
like 25-30 million users, and they sell 4-5 million Macs a year).  
Also, some of the identifiers for Mac browsers are probably the same  
for OS9 and OSX ie "Power_PC" - I think there was a Fat Binary IE 5.x  
for example.


-- Clive

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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Marc Vos-3
In reply to this post by Greg Willits
Hi,

I don't think IE Mac is going away because of the simple fact that lots of
sites cannot be viewed with Safari, Firefox or Netscape. They're made by IE
Windows only programmers and can only be viewed on the Mac with MSIE 5 Mac.

And once you have a browser open, you tend to keep using it because you go
from link to link.

-Marc Vos
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Goodyear Dunlop Tires Germany GmbH
Private:  http://marc.vos.net/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


On 25-07-2005 04:33, "Greg Willits" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm trying to find evidence that IE Mac 5.2 on OS 9 or X is even
> worth worrying about...So far I have found none.
>
> I've looked up stats all over the place and even asked large Mac
> specific sites (not enough responses yet)--so far I've found no
> evidence that IE Mac 5.2 is at all in common use anymore. Unless
> someone here can cough up stats that say otherwise, I'd lump IE 5.2
> right in there with Nav 4.7. It's dead, there's nothing more to see
> here people, move along.
>
> I'm surmising that the majority of this alleged 50% of OS 9 in use is
> in DTP/audio production and other such cases where those machines are
> not used for browsing. I can't find evidence that OS 9 even registers
> in browser stats.
>
> If you have stats that say 5.2 or OS 9 is worth worrying about, I'd
> like to know (please state your site's content and target audience
> for perspective as well).
>
> -- greg



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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Greg Willits

On 25 Jul 2005, at 08:15, Marc Vos wrote:

> I don't think IE Mac is going away because of the simple fact that  
> lots of
> sites cannot be viewed with Safari, Firefox or Netscape. They're  
> made by IE
> Windows only programmers and can only be viewed on the Mac with  
> MSIE 5 Mac.

Yes, sorry, I meant to say that too! There's also the annoying habit  
of not checking CSS changes/general coding changes on anything but  
IE. A couple of months ago Wired made some changes to its site, which  
made it pretty much unusable with Safari. I kept complaining but they  
did nothing. In the end I bugged it with Apple (as a Safari bug,  
because IE and Firefox handled the pages ok).

A little while after that Wired fixed the problem (maybe a complaint  
from Apple?).

One thing you can do however, in Safari, with sites that refuse  
browsers other than IE: turn the debug menu on and change the browser  
info header that it sends - usually this will get you in, and you  
don't notice any oddities.


-- Clive

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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Marc Vos-3
In reply to this post by Greg Willits
Hi,

On 25-07-2005 11:54, "Clive Bruton" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 25 Jul 2005, at 08:15, Marc Vos wrote:
>
>> I don't think IE Mac is going away because of the simple fact that
>> lots of
>> sites cannot be viewed with Safari, Firefox or Netscape. They're
>> made by IE
>> Windows only programmers and can only be viewed on the Mac with
>> MSIE 5 Mac.
>
> Yes, sorry, I meant to say that too! There's also the annoying habit
> of not checking CSS changes/general coding changes on anything but
> IE. A couple of months ago Wired made some changes to its site, which
> made it pretty much unusable with Safari. I kept complaining but they
> did nothing. In the end I bugged it with Apple (as a Safari bug,
> because IE and Firefox handled the pages ok).
>

Oh man, here in the Netherlands, lots of sites I can't get into with a Mac
browser. For some work with IE and others only work with Safari and again
others only work with Mozilla. And practically it all has to do with
Java-applets and Javascript.

> A little while after that Wired fixed the problem (maybe a complaint
> from Apple?).
>
> One thing you can do however, in Safari, with sites that refuse
> browsers other than IE: turn the debug menu on and change the browser
> info header that it sends - usually this will get you in, and you
> don't notice any oddities.
>

Huh? Is that possible? I'll try that one day. Thanks for the tip!

>
> -- Clive



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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Greg Willits

On 25 Jul 2005, at 13:03, Marc Vos wrote:

>> One thing you can do however, in Safari, with sites that refuse
>> browsers other than IE: turn the debug menu on and change the browser
>> info header that it sends - usually this will get you in, and you
>> don't notice any oddities.
>>
>>
>
> Huh? Is that possible? I'll try that one day. Thanks for the tip!

Yes, if you look in the debug menu there are seven different "User  
Agents" to choose from (Safari 2.0). As you say, most of the  
differences are Java apps or JavaScript - usually these seem to work ok.


-- Clive

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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Rhia
In reply to this post by Greg Willits
We still also have clients on os9 and X, and they continue to use IE. You
would be surprised at the number of clients that do not even realize there
are other browsers out there. It just depends on the client base, but we
always make sure our sites are compatible with IE for Mac, IE for PC,
Mozilla, Camino, Firefox, Safari, and Netscape. So, my answer would be yes,
definitely be concerned over at least IE for OSX. :)

Rhia Steele

Thank you for your continued support and business,

Rhia Steele
--------------------------------------------------------
Customer Relations, Web Design              [hidden email]
Web Optimization Specialist               [hidden email]
Integraserve hosting solutions                 www.integraserve.net
  "Hosting businesses IS our business"        1-866-889-HOST
--------------------------------------------------------









On 7/24/05 8:15 PM, "Wade Maxfield" <[hidden email]> pontificated
in wonder about the following:

>> I'm trying to find evidence that IE Mac 5.2 on
>> OS 9 or X is even worth worrying about...So far
>> I have found none.
>>
>> I've looked up stats all over the place and even
>> asked large Mac specific sites (not enough
>> responses yet)--so far I've found no evidence
>> that IE Mac 5.2 is at all in common use anymore.
>> Unless someone here can cough up stats that say
>> otherwise, I'd lump IE 5.2 right in there with
>> Nav 4.7. It's dead, there's nothing more to see
>> here people, move along.
>>
>> I'm surmising that the majority of this alleged
>> 50% of OS 9 in use is in DTP/audio production
>> and other such cases where those machines are
>> not used for browsing. I can't find evidence
>> that OS 9 even registers in browser stats.
>>
>> If you have stats that say 5.2 or OS 9 is worth
>> worrying about, I'd like to know (please state
>> your site's content and target audience for
>> perspective as well).
>>
>> -- greg
>>
>
> For what it's worth:
>
> Fine Art auctioneers site, 76,900 page views in
> June 2005. 9.9% of all page views were mac based
>
> As a percentage of just mac visitors:
> IE 5.0 ‰ 2.8%
> IE 5.1 ‰ 13.5%
> IE 5.2 ‰ 11.4%
> Netscape 5 ‰ 66.5%
> Netscape 7 ‰ 1.3%
> Opera 6 ‰ 4.2%
>
>
> Read into it what you will 8)
>
>   - Wade



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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Roddie Grant
In reply to this post by Greg Willits
I was talking to a reasonably computer-literate friend about accessing email
through a browser. "What's a browser?" they asked. "Well", I replied, "like
Internet Explorer." "What's that?"...

It turned out that on their PC they went to "Start -> Internet" without a
clue about exactly what that did. They had no idea they were launching a
browser, let alone which one it was or that there were alternatives.

Kind of depressing really :-(    At least it wasn't Netscape 4.

Roddie Grant




on 25/7/05 16:57, Rhia at [hidden email] wrote:

> We still also have clients on os9 and X, and they continue to use IE. You
> would be surprised at the number of clients that do not even realize there
> are other browsers out there. It just depends on the client base, but we
> always make sure our sites are compatible with IE for Mac, IE for PC,
> Mozilla, Camino, Firefox, Safari, and Netscape. So, my answer would be yes,
> definitely be concerned over at least IE for OSX. :)
>
> Rhia Steele
>
> Thank you for your continued support and business,
>
> Rhia Steele
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Customer Relations, Web Design              [hidden email]
> Web Optimization Specialist               [hidden email]
> Integraserve hosting solutions                 www.integraserve.net
> "Hosting businesses IS our business"        1-866-889-HOST
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/24/05 8:15 PM, "Wade Maxfield" <[hidden email]> pontificated
> in wonder about the following:
>
>>> I'm trying to find evidence that IE Mac 5.2 on
>>> OS 9 or X is even worth worrying about...So far
>>> I have found none.
>>>
>>> I've looked up stats all over the place and even
>>> asked large Mac specific sites (not enough
>>> responses yet)--so far I've found no evidence
>>> that IE Mac 5.2 is at all in common use anymore.
>>> Unless someone here can cough up stats that say
>>> otherwise, I'd lump IE 5.2 right in there with
>>> Nav 4.7. It's dead, there's nothing more to see
>>> here people, move along.
>>>
>>> I'm surmising that the majority of this alleged
>>> 50% of OS 9 in use is in DTP/audio production
>>> and other such cases where those machines are
>>> not used for browsing. I can't find evidence
>>> that OS 9 even registers in browser stats.
>>>
>>> If you have stats that say 5.2 or OS 9 is worth
>>> worrying about, I'd like to know (please state
>>> your site's content and target audience for
>>> perspective as well).
>>>
>>> -- greg
>>>
>>
>> For what it's worth:
>>
>> Fine Art auctioneers site, 76,900 page views in
>> June 2005. 9.9% of all page views were mac based
>>
>> As a percentage of just mac visitors:
>> IE 5.0 ‰ 2.8%
>> IE 5.1 ‰ 13.5%
>> IE 5.2 ‰ 11.4%
>> Netscape 5 ‰ 66.5%
>> Netscape 7 ‰ 1.3%
>> Opera 6 ‰ 4.2%
>>
>>
>> Read into it what you will 8)
>>
>>   - Wade
>
>


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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Marc Vos-3
In reply to this post by Greg Willits
Hi,

Not depressing at all. It's very normal with the standard type of user (80%)
that they don't know what's happening and what a 'program' is. I know of
users when asked what system they use answer: I use Word.

-Marc Vos

On 25-07-2005 19:01, "Roddie Grant" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I was talking to a reasonably computer-literate friend about accessing email
> through a browser. "What's a browser?" they asked. "Well", I replied, "like
> Internet Explorer." "What's that?"...
>
> It turned out that on their PC they went to "Start -> Internet" without a
> clue about exactly what that did. They had no idea they were launching a
> browser, let alone which one it was or that there were alternatives.
>
> Kind of depressing really :-(    At least it wasn't Netscape 4.
>
> Roddie Grant
>
>
>
>
> on 25/7/05 16:57, Rhia at [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> We still also have clients on os9 and X, and they continue to use IE. You
>> would be surprised at the number of clients that do not even realize there
>> are other browsers out there. It just depends on the client base, but we
>> always make sure our sites are compatible with IE for Mac, IE for PC,
>> Mozilla, Camino, Firefox, Safari, and Netscape. So, my answer would be yes,
>> definitely be concerned over at least IE for OSX. :)
>>
>> Rhia Steele
>>
>> Thank you for your continued support and business,
>>
>> Rhia Steele
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Customer Relations, Web Design              [hidden email]
>> Web Optimization Specialist               [hidden email]
>> Integraserve hosting solutions                 www.integraserve.net
>> "Hosting businesses IS our business"        1-866-889-HOST
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/24/05 8:15 PM, "Wade Maxfield" <[hidden email]> pontificated
>> in wonder about the following:
>>
>>>> I'm trying to find evidence that IE Mac 5.2 on
>>>> OS 9 or X is even worth worrying about...So far
>>>> I have found none.
>>>>
>>>> I've looked up stats all over the place and even
>>>> asked large Mac specific sites (not enough
>>>> responses yet)--so far I've found no evidence
>>>> that IE Mac 5.2 is at all in common use anymore.
>>>> Unless someone here can cough up stats that say
>>>> otherwise, I'd lump IE 5.2 right in there with
>>>> Nav 4.7. It's dead, there's nothing more to see
>>>> here people, move along.
>>>>
>>>> I'm surmising that the majority of this alleged
>>>> 50% of OS 9 in use is in DTP/audio production
>>>> and other such cases where those machines are
>>>> not used for browsing. I can't find evidence
>>>> that OS 9 even registers in browser stats.
>>>>
>>>> If you have stats that say 5.2 or OS 9 is worth
>>>> worrying about, I'd like to know (please state
>>>> your site's content and target audience for
>>>> perspective as well).
>>>>
>>>> -- greg
>>>>
>>>
>>> For what it's worth:
>>>
>>> Fine Art auctioneers site, 76,900 page views in
>>> June 2005. 9.9% of all page views were mac based
>>>
>>> As a percentage of just mac visitors:
>>> IE 5.0 ‰ 2.8%
>>> IE 5.1 ‰ 13.5%
>>> IE 5.2 ‰ 11.4%
>>> Netscape 5 ‰ 66.5%
>>> Netscape 7 ‰ 1.3%
>>> Opera 6 ‰ 4.2%
>>>
>>>
>>> Read into it what you will 8)
>>>
>>>   - Wade
>>
>>
>



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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Nikolaj de Fine Licht
In reply to this post by Greg Willits
My experience from dealing with customers and from teaching almost 4
years of webdesign at a college which picked up students with an age
range of typically 20-35 years (thus not so many teenagers) is, that
what you say is _the rule_, not a sad exception. The typical
Windows-user is very different from the Mac-world in aspects like this.

/nikolaj

On 25. jul 2005, at 19:01, Roddie Grant wrote:

> I was talking to a reasonably computer-literate friend about accessing
> email
> through a browser. "What's a browser?" they asked. "Well", I replied,
> "like
> Internet Explorer." "What's that?"...
>
> It turned out that on their PC they went to "Start -> Internet"
> without a
> clue about exactly what that did. They had no idea they were launching
> a
> browser, let alone which one it was or that there were alternatives.
>
> Kind of depressing really :-(    At least it wasn't Netscape 4.
>
> Roddie Grant


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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Rhia
In reply to this post by Greg Willits
Hi Marc,

I must disagree with you about IE for the Mac. It is a known and announced
fact the Microsoft is going to completely drop IE for the Mac. Especially
when Longhorn comes out (and when is any ones guess now with all of the
delays), plus I have NEVER came across one site that does not work great in
Safari, Firefox, Camino, and Mozilla. Honestly I never open IE on my Mac,
unless I feel the need to do a site check. IE for the Mac will be history
for sure.

Best regards,

Rhia Steele

--------------------------------------------------------
Customer Relations, Web Design              [hidden email]
Web Optimization Specialist               [hidden email]
Integraserve hosting solutions                 www.integraserve.net
  "Hosting businesses IS our business"        1-866-889-HOST
--------------------------------------------------------









On 7/25/05 12:15 AM, "Marc Vos" <[hidden email]> pontificated in wonder about
the following:

> Hi,
>
> I don't think IE Mac is going away because of the simple fact that lots of
> sites cannot be viewed with Safari, Firefox or Netscape. They're made by IE
> Windows only programmers and can only be viewed on the Mac with MSIE 5 Mac.
>
> And once you have a browser open, you tend to keep using it because you go
> from link to link.
>
> -Marc Vos
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Goodyear Dunlop Tires Germany GmbH
> Private:  http://marc.vos.net/
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
> On 25-07-2005 04:33, "Greg Willits" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I'm trying to find evidence that IE Mac 5.2 on OS 9 or X is even
>> worth worrying about...So far I have found none.
>>
>> I've looked up stats all over the place and even asked large Mac
>> specific sites (not enough responses yet)--so far I've found no
>> evidence that IE Mac 5.2 is at all in common use anymore. Unless
>> someone here can cough up stats that say otherwise, I'd lump IE 5.2
>> right in there with Nav 4.7. It's dead, there's nothing more to see
>> here people, move along.
>>
>> I'm surmising that the majority of this alleged 50% of OS 9 in use is
>> in DTP/audio production and other such cases where those machines are
>> not used for browsing. I can't find evidence that OS 9 even registers
>> in browser stats.
>>
>> If you have stats that say 5.2 or OS 9 is worth worrying about, I'd
>> like to know (please state your site's content and target audience
>> for perspective as well).
>>
>> -- greg
>
>



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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Marc Vos-3
In reply to this post by Greg Willits
Hi Rhia,

Well, then you're in luck. I have to open IE frequently to see if a site
that displays nothing in Safari or Firefox will show something in IE.
Especially and probably only when Java-applets for passwords or menus are
involved.

-Marc


On 26-07-2005 18:04, "Rhia" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Marc,
>
> I must disagree with you about IE for the Mac. It is a known and announced
> fact the Microsoft is going to completely drop IE for the Mac. Especially
> when Longhorn comes out (and when is any ones guess now with all of the
> delays), plus I have NEVER came across one site that does not work great in
> Safari, Firefox, Camino, and Mozilla. Honestly I never open IE on my Mac,
> unless I feel the need to do a site check. IE for the Mac will be history
> for sure.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rhia Steele
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Customer Relations, Web Design              [hidden email]
> Web Optimization Specialist               [hidden email]
> Integraserve hosting solutions                 www.integraserve.net
>   "Hosting businesses IS our business"        1-866-889-HOST
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/25/05 12:15 AM, "Marc Vos" <[hidden email]> pontificated in wonder about
> the following:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I don't think IE Mac is going away because of the simple fact that lots of
>> sites cannot be viewed with Safari, Firefox or Netscape. They're made by IE
>> Windows only programmers and can only be viewed on the Mac with MSIE 5 Mac.
>>
>> And once you have a browser open, you tend to keep using it because you go
>> from link to link.
>>
>> -Marc Vos
>> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>> Goodyear Dunlop Tires Germany GmbH
>> Private:  http://marc.vos.net/
>> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>>
>>
>> On 25-07-2005 04:33, "Greg Willits" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm trying to find evidence that IE Mac 5.2 on OS 9 or X is even
>>> worth worrying about...So far I have found none.
>>>
>>> I've looked up stats all over the place and even asked large Mac
>>> specific sites (not enough responses yet)--so far I've found no
>>> evidence that IE Mac 5.2 is at all in common use anymore. Unless
>>> someone here can cough up stats that say otherwise, I'd lump IE 5.2
>>> right in there with Nav 4.7. It's dead, there's nothing more to see
>>> here people, move along.
>>>
>>> I'm surmising that the majority of this alleged 50% of OS 9 in use is
>>> in DTP/audio production and other such cases where those machines are
>>> not used for browsing. I can't find evidence that OS 9 even registers
>>> in browser stats.
>>>
>>> If you have stats that say 5.2 or OS 9 is worth worrying about, I'd
>>> like to know (please state your site's content and target audience
>>> for perspective as well).
>>>
>>> -- greg
>>
>>
>
>



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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Greg Willits

On 26 Jul 2005, at 17:04, Rhia wrote:

> I must disagree with you about IE for the Mac. It is a known and  
> announced
> fact the Microsoft is going to completely drop IE for the Mac.

Well, that's true enough, but that doesn't mean it's actually going  
to disappear tomorrow - and remember that it's the browser bundled  
with all MacOS releases from 8.0 through to 10.2

> plus I have NEVER came across one site that does not work great in
> Safari, Firefox, Camino, and Mozilla.

But there are plenty of sites out there that won't even let you in if  
your user agent isn't IE - that's without considering rendering  
differences between the browsers.


-- Clive

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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Rhia
In reply to this post by Greg Willits
Hi All,

What I was trying say was Microsoft (or meant to say) will not be doing
anymore versions of IE for the Mac. They made that clear when "Longhorn" now
to be "Vista" if they don't change names again. They decided since Mac has
Safari is is not cost effective to continue to update IE. In fact, IE will
go away also when "Vista" comes out, the new system taking over windows.

I have designed many sites as well as hit many sites during the course of a
day, and as for myself I never have a problem with Safari, Camino or
Mozilla. That is just me, maybe you see other things I don't . I guess it is
a "crap shoot" as far as IE, but from my reading Microsoft made it very
clear, there would be no further updates to IE for Mac.

Rhia


On 7/27/05 8:01 AM, "Clive Bruton" <[hidden email]> pontificated in wonder
about the following:

>
> On 26 Jul 2005, at 17:04, Rhia wrote:
>
>> I must disagree with you about IE for the Mac. It is a known and
>> announced
>> fact the Microsoft is going to completely drop IE for the Mac.
>
> Well, that's true enough, but that doesn't mean it's actually going
> to disappear tomorrow - and remember that it's the browser bundled
> with all MacOS releases from 8.0 through to 10.2
>
>> plus I have NEVER came across one site that does not work great in
>> Safari, Firefox, Camino, and Mozilla.
>
> But there are plenty of sites out there that won't even let you in if
> your user agent isn't IE - that's without considering rendering
> differences between the browsers.
>
>
> -- Clive



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Re: Evidence of Pre-Safari Browsers

Marc Vos-3
In reply to this post by Greg Willits
Hi,

That MS has already stopped development on IE Mac for a long time, I knew
that. It was said the moment OS X was launched.

But, never throw away old tools. You never know when they might come in
handy. I still use it at least once a month to download online invoices. And
for diskspace, that few extra bytes... who cares.

And since MS Office Mac is still being developed, who says IE is in the
trash? You know developers! There might be just ONE who gets the itch and
the freedom to play with the old IE. Who knows what the future will bring.

Regards,

-Marc Vos
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Goodyear Dunlop Tires Germany GmbH
Private:  http://marc.vos.net/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

On 27-07-2005 18:56, "Rhia" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> What I was trying say was Microsoft (or meant to say) will not be doing
> anymore versions of IE for the Mac. They made that clear when "Longhorn" now
> to be "Vista" if they don't change names again. They decided since Mac has
> Safari is is not cost effective to continue to update IE. In fact, IE will
> go away also when "Vista" comes out, the new system taking over windows.
>
> I have designed many sites as well as hit many sites during the course of a
> day, and as for myself I never have a problem with Safari, Camino or
> Mozilla. That is just me, maybe you see other things I don't . I guess it is
> a "crap shoot" as far as IE, but from my reading Microsoft made it very
> clear, there would be no further updates to IE for Mac.
>
> Rhia
>
>
> On 7/27/05 8:01 AM, "Clive Bruton" <[hidden email]> pontificated in wonder
> about the following:
>
>>
>> On 26 Jul 2005, at 17:04, Rhia wrote:
>>
>>> I must disagree with you about IE for the Mac. It is a known and
>>> announced
>>> fact the Microsoft is going to completely drop IE for the Mac.
>>
>> Well, that's true enough, but that doesn't mean it's actually going
>> to disappear tomorrow - and remember that it's the browser bundled
>> with all MacOS releases from 8.0 through to 10.2
>>
>>> plus I have NEVER came across one site that does not work great in
>>> Safari, Firefox, Camino, and Mozilla.
>>
>> But there are plenty of sites out there that won't even let you in if
>> your user agent isn't IE - that's without considering rendering
>> differences between the browsers.
>>
>>
>> -- Clive
>
>



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