[ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

hans.dewit
I have NOT posted in quite some time. I was a vocal individual in my time,
but have achieved certain success without upgrading the site. Even though we
have purchased all versions up to level 8.

I am stuck in Lasso 6 which was the greatest product. We migrated up from
version 3 and we have a site that runs a corporate structure, franchise
store and cash registers. As well as everything inbetween. When Version 7
arrived, we attempted upgrade, but the drastic reduction in speed with heavy
loaded sessions disabled our efforts.  We continued to build in V6 and when
8 arrived the task was monumental.

Today the mere thought of converting this monster to 9 is almost a pipe
dream. However, if your asking, then a more clear consice instructional
process for people to move up from prior versions is needed. Even for your
cash flow the upgrades will come more quickly.

It's great to here things will get better. I have read all of the posts over
the years, but had nothing to add. But I'm still here.

S.J. (Hans) de Wit
www.Printer.CA
Hamilton, Ontario


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Stephens" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 4:59 PM
Subject: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation


Greetings again

After the last email, I wish to begin this new chapter by learning from you
all about your problems, desires and issues. I am looking for everything you
have to say on the subjects of;

- Great ideas you have for the Lasso product
- Great ideas you have for the LassoSoft business
- Problems and complaints you have with Lasso
- Failures of Lasso in the past
- Projects/Clients you have lost due to failed code or issues you need
addressed
- Current projects in jeopardy due to Lasso
- Information about your own products or product ideas
- Skills you might have to help us, either volunteer or paid
- Bugs, critical and non-critical
- Feature requests
- Products you have which need to be discussed
- Opportunities you have that we can leverage together for success
- Anything else you feel needs to be heard...

I am opening this can of worms for discussion as I do not wish our past or
current problems to plague our future. By making public all of the issues,
and sharing them as a community, we can address their implications and
concentrate effectively on fixing them. There are things we do not know
about our past, and which we need to know if we are to define our future
together.

This is the time open up and help us define Lasso. For this express purpose,
I introduce to you the following forum for your thoughts;

http://listening.lassosoft.com/

This dialogue will continue for the month of December - during this period,
the following ears are open for your words;

- The core forum: http://listening.lassosoft.com/
- Emails to me directly (I will work through them as quickly as possible):
[hidden email]
- Book a time via email to iChat or Video Chat with me directly if you feel
the need
- Send Kerry an email, or iChat him directly: [hidden email]

Obviously, I/we cannot hope to deal with all issues, bugs and features
instantly. However, we can learn from one another and potentially the
feedback will help ensure we are headed in a magnificent direction.

I trust you all will help me get Lasso aimed correctly in the best interests
of our larger community.

Let's get started right away!

Thanks!

Sean Stephens
CEO
LassoSoft Inc.
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Marc Vos
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
I think that the reason for that is the lack of a steady income. Then developers start to complain and do not buy licenses: lesser income and lesser gets fixed: mor developers complain, etc. until BOOM!! Or a new investor like now.

So I think, and I support the idea, that a paid annual subscription works.

- -
Marc

Sent from my iPhone

On 5 dec. 2010, at 15:39, Clive Bruton <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 5 Dec 2010, at 03:26, Bil Corry wrote:
>
>> The income level wasn't there because the paid upgrades were spread too far apart.  With an annual paid upgrade that is compelling, I think there's enough of a customer base to support Lasso on-going.
>
> I think this model doesn't work either - bugs in old versions never get fixed and people get bitter about that. They also think that the "upgrades" are mostly just puff and bug fixes.
>
>
> -- Clive
>

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Fabrizio Carioni

On Dec 5, 2010, at 9:05 PM, Marc Vos wrote:

> I think that the reason for that is the lack of a steady income. Then developers start to complain and do not buy licenses: lesser income and lesser gets fixed: mor developers complain, etc. until BOOM!! Or a new investor like now.
>
> So I think, and I support the idea, that a paid annual subscription works.
>
> - -


If this will be the way, I'm gone!
I could do with php what I now do in Lasso, very quickly, in my situation.
Don't need a partner. :-)


Seriously, If this should be the path, before that, Lasso 9 must become an incredible full featured product that now is not. Not even close, IMO. A suite made up by a stable language, tools etc. etc.
Otherwise the competition from other products will be far too strong.

Ciao

======================================================================
Fabrizio Carioni - Golem100 S.r.l.                                                                                
Gran Sasso (via), 50 - 20090 - Segrate (Mi) - Italy
Voice +39-02-2133402  -  Fax +39-02-93650749  - Mobile 3356463448
Email [hidden email] - URL http://www.golem100.com/
The Inka Roads Project - URL http://www.inkaroads.com/
======================================================================


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Why: LassoSoft != Treefrog

Sean Stephens-2
In reply to this post by Göran Törnquist-2
(breaking off this thread, for simplicity)

>> There's a converse argument - Treefrog has made Lasso separate because it doesn't want to take the risk of it taking down Treefrog too. That's essentially why people form Ltd/Inc companies, to separate the finances of two units so that one failure doesn't bring down the whole thing.
>
> Anyone sane wants to limit risks and liability. The key thing is that having them as a single business unit would risk the ownership of a successful business. I'm obviously speculating here. Why don't you ask Sean if you're interested in why?

Although I am trying my best to just listen (as promised), I believe this is a direct question about recent past events which should be answered. It's easy to answer;

Why is LassoSoft a distinct company from Treefrog?

Treefrog is a profitable, growing business which has been around since 1989. We have grown dramatically in the last 6 years, through a variety of services, including strategy, design, programming and content development (amongst other things). Our clients include public sector, education (local Universities), Tier 1 (GE, Blockbuster, Air Canada) midsize (technology through industrial) and even many smaller businesses (the local cookie shop). We have won awards for service, design, technology and more (we just won the local "Business of the Year" for our city, for example). We have made millions of dollars on providing people with excellent services in many ways - usually through helping them find success on the internet.

Treefrog enjoys an extraordinarily stable business model. Our largest client represents 5% of our revenue. Much of our revenue is retainer-based. We have dozens of smaller, regularized streams of revenue. We have 80% brand saturation in our market. We have some of the best talent in the world. Many of our clients have made their own millions of dollars through our services and advice, and are thus eager to pay us more.

A number of our projects this year were larger than LassoSoft's revenue in total.

The business of Treefrog, however, is based on services, much of which is to a local clientele. At the end of the day, most of our revenue comes from professional services - like an accountant or a lawyer - as website developers. The fact that we use Lasso as our development tool is completely irrelevant to almost all of our clientele. They want success, in the form of leads, revenue or traffic. They wouldn't care if we built their website with a banana, if it performed for them (and it was appealing enough?).

LassoSoft, on the other hand, is a product company. The clientele is different. The goals are different. The business plan is different.

You cannot share values, mission, strategy and direction within the same company while offering professional services to one group and products to another. You need to decide whether your company sells products or services. You need to understand what causes sales, where the future might lead, and what success looks like. Your answers should be different for both companies.

There are also administrative issues and cost savings surrounding combining a company with both services and SKUs. For example - there is no way we could get Errors and Omissions insurance for a company which is both marketing website services and server software. It's just not available. (I know, I looked).

Let me be crystal: Treefrog is in no danger of disappearing any time soon. Treefrog can afford to keep LassoSoft running (at it's current size) virtually indefinitely, out of current revenue. Plus, the Canadian Government is behind Treefrog - cash in hand - and thus is now behind LassoSoft.

I want the world to be clear that LassoSoft is it's own animal. It is a little bruised, and it may take time, but it will be given the opportunity to achieve it's own great destiny. I hope it outgrows Treefrog one day. (Several other businesses we have built have done so).

LassoSoft needed it's own pot to grow in, and thus it was incorporated separately. At the end of the day, should a faceless monolith decide to take a run at us with a group of snarling lawyers - I'm sure they will come after Treefrog as well, not to mention my car, my house, my kids, possibly even my dog (and I don't have a dog). Incorporation is just paper, after all. Paper is about .5mm between you and a nasty lawyer - slightly more protection from being thrown out of paradise than a fig leaf.

Now - back to listening to you all... :)

Sean Stephens
CEO
LassoSoft Inc.



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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

stevepiercy
In reply to this post by Fabrizio Carioni
On 12/5/10 at 9:17 PM, [hidden email] (Fabrizio Carioni) pronounced:

>On Dec 5, 2010, at 9:05 PM, Marc Vos wrote:
>
>>I think that the reason for that is the lack of a steady income. Then developers
>start to complain and do not buy licenses: lesser income and
>lesser gets fixed: mor developers complain, etc. until BOOM!!
>Or a new investor like now.
>>
>>So I think, and I support the idea, that a paid annual subscription works.
>>
>>- -
>
>
>If this will be the way, I'm gone!
>I could do with php what I now do in Lasso, very quickly, in my situation.
>Don't need a partner. :-)

There is a difference between a paid annual subscription and a
paid upgrade that is released annually.  With the former, your
license expires annually, whereas with the latter your current
license continues to function and you may optionally pay for an upgrade.

I think Bil was suggesting the latter.

--steve

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
-- --
Steve Piercy               Web Site Builder              
Soquel, CA
<[hidden email]>                  <http://www.StevePiercy.com/>


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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Göran Törnquist-2

On 5 Dec 2010, at 15:03, Göran Törnquist wrote:

> The key thing is that having them as a single business unit would  
> risk the ownership of a successful business.

I'm not sure how you figure that, since units of businesses can  
always be separated out at a later date if someone wants to do so.

> Why don't you ask Sean if you're interested in why?

I'm not that interested in why, I think we both understand the  
reasons for doing it.


-- Clive
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by stevepiercy

On 5 Dec 2010, at 23:16, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote:

> There is a difference between a paid annual subscription and a paid  
> upgrade that is released annually.  With the former, your license  
> expires annually, whereas with the latter your current license  
> continues to function and you may optionally pay for an upgrade.
>
> I think Bil was suggesting the latter.

And I think we all understand it as the former. That is, that an  
annual upgrade is most often a set of bug fixes and a bit of fluff -  
ie you have to buy it in order to get the bug fixes. I think it is  
not economically viable to try to run such a structure and then try  
to fix the bugs in all the old versions as well. I've seen Hans post  
today that he won't upgrade from 6.0, and I'm sure there are plenty  
of others like that too... what's that, about seven years worth of  
annual upgrades that need to be supported and bug-fixed?


-- Clive

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Re: Why: LassoSoft != Treefrog

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Sean Stephens-2

On 5 Dec 2010, at 22:35, Sean Stephens wrote:

> There are also administrative issues and cost savings surrounding  
> combining a company with both services and SKUs.

I'm not quite making sense of this sentence, but what I think you're  
saying is that there are cost savings and easier administration in  
having two separate companies. I think that's probably the opposite  
of what most businesses appear to consider good practice (ie they  
seem to like to combine into larger and larger corporations).

> For example - there is no way we could get Errors and Omissions  
> insurance for a company which is both marketing website services  
> and server software. It's just not available. (I know, I looked).

That may well be true, my own experience is that it is difficult to  
get insurance that covers liabilities across different sectors. But  
the answer is fairly straight-forward - you get two different sets of  
insurance (or multiple sets) that cover the different risks in the  
different business sectors. That's what you've effectively done now,  
except that you've incorporated in separate companies. I've certainly  
had multiple insurance cover on different aspects of the same limited  
company.


-- Clive

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

stevepiercy
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
On 12/6/10 at 12:13 AM, [hidden email] (Clive Bruton) pronounced:

>On 5 Dec 2010, at 23:16, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote:
>
>>There is a difference between a paid annual subscription and a
>>paid upgrade that is released annually.  With the former, your
>>license expires annually, whereas with the latter your current
>>license continues to function and you may optionally pay for
>>an upgrade.
>>
>>I think Bil was suggesting the latter.
>
>And I think we all understand it as the former. That is, that
>an annual upgrade is most often a set of bug fixes and a bit of
>fluff - ie you have to buy it in order to get the bug fixes.

An upgrade is not a subscription.  Otherwise I would have a lot
of magazine upgrades, and I would never have subscribed my Lasso
6 license to Lasso 8.

--steve

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
-- --
Steve Piercy               Web Site Builder              
Soquel, CA
<[hidden email]>                  <http://www.StevePiercy.com/>


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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Clive Bruton

On 6 Dec 2010, at 02:45, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote:

> An upgrade is not a subscription.  Otherwise I would have a lot of  
> magazine upgrades, and I would never have subscribed my Lasso 6  
> license to Lasso 8.

I think you're not looking at the reality of the situation that will  
arise, just worrying about the semantics of the words used.

The reference to magazine subscriptions is pretty much spot on. When  
you subscribe to a magazine you get several copies over the course of  
your subscription. These don't stop working when your subscription  
ends, but you don't get the further instalments (upgrades) you may  
need in the future.

Subscription-type/annual upgrade models are either the preserves of  
large near-monopolies or the dying gasps of those going down for the  
last time.

IMO


-- Clive

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

stevepiercy
On 12/6/10 at 2:59 AM, [hidden email] (Clive Bruton) pronounced:

>On 6 Dec 2010, at 02:45, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote:
>
>>An upgrade is not a subscription.  Otherwise I would have a
>>lot of magazine upgrades, and I would never have subscribed my
>>Lasso 6 license to Lasso 8.
>
>I think you're not looking at the reality of the situation that
>will arise, just worrying about the semantics of the words used.

I like clear definitions so that I understand what is being
referenced.  We could argue the definition of "subscription" and
"upgrade", so I provided below what I understand as the common
definitions of the terms.  It may be a cultural difference, like
"chips" in England are called "French-fried potatoes" in America.

>The reference to magazine subscriptions is pretty much spot on.
>When you subscribe to a magazine you get several copies over
>the course of your subscription. These don't stop working when
>your subscription ends, but you don't get the further
>instalments (upgrades) you may need in the future.

A "subscription" tends to be for a service for a defined
period.  When you get a magazine subscription, it's the service
of *delivery* of news and information to which you subscribe.  
When the subscription ends, the delivery ends.

An "upgrade" tends to be a one-time fee in exchange for a
product.  Example: upgrade Mac OS X 10.5 to 10.6.

An "update" may be part of either a subscription or an upgrade.  
Example: Software Updates from Mac OS X for security updates and
point releases within a version.

Anyway, I am not clear what Bil was suggesting as a business
model for LassoSoft, but he never mentioned the word
"subscription", and I don't think he ever suggested that any
particular model would succeed or fail.  Your opinion is clear
about what you think will fail, but you don't offer
alternatives.  What do you think would succeed?

Just for me, if a server software product was time-based
cripple-ware, I would avoid it.  I am really bad with
remembering anniversaries.  Just ask my wife.

--steve

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-- --
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Soquel, CA
<[hidden email]>                  <http://www.StevePiercy.com/>


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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Patrick Larkin-2
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
We use software that charges yearly maintenance which entitles the purchaser to all upgrades and unlimited technical support during the period.  The support is the main driver for us with some products requiring much more support than others.  

Patrick

On Dec 5, 2010, at 9:59 PM, Clive Bruton <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 6 Dec 2010, at 02:45, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote:
>
>> An upgrade is not a subscription.  Otherwise I would have a lot of magazine upgrades, and I would never have subscribed my Lasso 6 license to Lasso 8.
>
> I think you're not looking at the reality of the situation that will arise, just worrying about the semantics of the words used.
>
> The reference to magazine subscriptions is pretty much spot on. When you subscribe to a magazine you get several copies over the course of your subscription. These don't stop working when your subscription ends, but you don't get the further instalments (upgrades) you may need in the future.
>
> Subscription-type/annual upgrade models are either the preserves of large near-monopolies or the dying gasps of those going down for the last time.
>
> IMO
>
>
> -- Clive
>
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>

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by stevepiercy

On 6 Dec 2010, at 04:18, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote:

> Anyway, I am not clear what Bil was suggesting as a business model  
> for LassoSoft, but he never mentioned the word "subscription", and  
> I don't think he ever suggested that any particular model would  
> succeed or fail.

Bil wrote:
> With an annual paid upgrade that is compelling, I think there's  
> enough of a customer base to support Lasso on-going...  However, I  
> don't see any growth in that model, but that may not be a goal.

I agree with Bil in this element - there's no growth in that model. I  
also think this represents a subscription model (for the reasons I  
have stated), or at least something very close to it.


> Your opinion is clear about what you think will fail, but you don't  
> offer alternatives.  What do you think would succeed?

I don't have the answer here I'm afraid, I don't know what the  
workable alternatives are. But I do think that trying to do the same  
thing all over again will just have the same result. I know this is  
just a cop-out - it's easy to criticise, it's harder to come up with  
solutions. But in fact, no one appears to be saying what the planned  
solution is... Sean mentions something vague about us critiquing the  
plan, but I really don't know what the plan is to start off with -  
all we're seeing is speculation on what it might be, and that's bad  
enough in itself.

Here's perhaps one idea. If Lasso was opensourced and free there  
would be at least a chance for it to become more widely adopted. How  
you get an income out of that as Lasso Inc I really don't know. From  
Treefrog's perspective, having the Lasso codebase available to tweak/
benefit from other people's tweaks might be a positive thing - more  
positive than the code being unavailable and moribund. But at the  
same time Treefrog has spent good money on acquisition, and that's  
not something they are likely to want to write off. The alternative  
commercial outlook would be to risk waiting for the "old" LassoSoft  
to eventually hit the wall and then try to pick up the assets from  
the receiver (or whatever passes for such in "Inc" land). But it's  
too late for speculation down that path.

Kerry seemed to be talking about OpenSource and "free" in the notes I  
saw from the EuroLasso conference, was that speculation as to what  
might happen in the last few weeks, but didn't, or is it part of  
Treefrog's masterplan that is, as yet, unstated?

I look at some of the posts recently from people who I would consider  
to be staunch Lasso fans, with large investments, who aren't getting  
answers and who, reading between the lines, are (almost) ready to  
move on. I think we've also seen, in the past few years, that similar  
groups of people have already made that decision.

What I want to see now is how anyone plans to answer those questions  
- and that isn't by telling me that they have a database of 40,000  
past customers. I want to know who the new customers are going to be.

>
> Just for me, if a server software product was time-based cripple-
> ware, I would avoid it.

If I even get a sniff of that I'll be actively working on  
alternatives, rather than just bearing them in mind.


-- Clive

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Patrick Larkin-2

On 6 Dec 2010, at 04:24, Patrick Larkin wrote:

> We use software that charges yearly maintenance which entitles the  
> purchaser to all upgrades and unlimited technical support during  
> the period.  The support is the main driver for us with some  
> products requiring much more support than others.

I don't remember the details, but isn't that the model that WebStar  
wanted us to buy into?

Do you think that Lasso is a product that warrants a yearly  
maintenance and unlimited technical support contract? Do you think  
anyone is capable of delivering that with the current and/or a  
reducing userbase? Would you buy the unlimited technical support if  
the product was free/opensource? Could you buy the technical support  
for a different, but free, product (ie PHP or Python)? Hasn't the  
technical support angle been a part of the Lasso model in the past  
anyway?

I expect that Treefrog would like answers to those questions too.


-- Clive

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

stevepiercy
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
On 12/6/10 at 4:56 AM, [hidden email] (Clive Bruton) pronounced:

>Here's perhaps one idea. If Lasso was opensourced and free
>there would be at least a chance for it to become more widely
>adopted. How you get an income out of that as Lasso Inc I
>really don't know. From Treefrog's perspective, having the
>Lasso codebase available to tweak/benefit from other people's
>tweaks might be a positive thing - more positive than the code
>being unavailable and moribund. But at the same time Treefrog
>has spent good money on acquisition, and that's not something
>they are likely to want to write off. The alternative
>commercial outlook would be to risk waiting for the "old"
>LassoSoft to eventually hit the wall and then try to pick up
>the assets from the receiver (or whatever passes for such in
>"Inc" land). But it's too late for speculation down that path.
>
>Kerry seemed to be talking about OpenSource and "free" in the
>notes I saw from the EuroLasso conference, was that speculation
>as to what might happen in the last few weeks, but didn't, or
>is it part of Treefrog's masterplan that is, as yet, unstated?

Sean made the following points in another thread:
* "most of our [Treefrog's] revenue comes from professional services"
* "LassoSoft, on the other hand, is a product company."
* "Treefrog can afford to keep LassoSoft running ... virtually
indefinitely, out of current revenue"

It's also no secret that TF depends on Lasso for many of its
services.  LEAP, TF's CMS, runs on Lasso.

Although TF/LS folks will be listening, I reckon TF entered into
the agreement to acquire LS where both have a business plan
already in mind.  If there were no plan, then it's too late to
start forming one now.

Our feedback may serve to refine this alleged plan, and perhaps
prioritize items within it.

As far as product development plans (not a business plan), I
believe LS's primary goal for the next month or two is to make
Lasso 9 easy to install.  That's a no-brainer.  If it cannot be
installed by the über geeks at EuroLasso in two hours, then
that's a big problem that needs to be fixed.

After a couple of months, LS's focus will shift to making Lasso
9 usable to a wider audience.  Better documentation, installers
for Windows and Ubuntu, webmin modules.

LS would still not be growing revenue at this point, but would
continue to sell product licenses and support as before.

The big question on my mind is whether any effort will be spent
on an upgrade version for 8.5.x at any point?  I think LS should
do so because it would reduce the need of developers to migrate
away from Lasso in search of stability and performance, and
likely never return.  LS should cultivate good relationships
with its customers, and it can do this through its product
releases and services.

Back to the business plan, let's assume that LS would release
Lasso 9 as free and open source software (FOSS).  LS would have
to create new products and services to generate revenue.  Some
of these products would allow developers to be more productive
or build and release products of their own, similar to what Zend
does for PHP, Oracle for MySQL, or RedHat for CentOS.  Perhaps
some products are subscription-based, but after the subscription
expires, the product continues to function but you just don't
get updates or support.  Other products may be a one-time
license fee.  LS could offer training, education, support and
consulting services.  IOW, there is no single product plan, but
many products together which comprise the business plan.

Now let's assume LS does not release Lasso 9 as FOSS.  They
could still create all those same products and services.

Would there be any advantage for LS to release Lasso 9 as FOSS?  
First of all, only Kyle has sufficient working knowledge about
Lasso source code, and programmers with Kyle's skill level are
not common.  Contributors to Lasso source code would be few and
far between.  However, there may be contributors in other
regards, such as QA testers, documentation writers, or "plugin"
developers, and a community may coalesce.  If there were a
not-for-profit organization or foundation that becomes the
perpetual caretaker of Lasso source code, then it would be more
likely to attract contributors.  A commercial product would have
no chance of attracting contributors, except to report bugs and
problems with the product.

--steve

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
-- --
Steve Piercy               Web Site Builder              
Soquel, CA
<[hidden email]>                  <http://www.StevePiercy.com/>


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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Petrus Näslund-3
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
My company use a lot of software that we pay yearly subscription fees for and I don't have any problem with this as long as we get some value back for the money we pay. Just as an example, the MSDN subscription gives us instant access to all new versions of Microsoft products and plenty of knowledge material when we need it.

Now, when it comes to the Lasso product I think that what Kerry outlined in Berlin about a free (but not open source) Lasso will be crucial for the future of the product. To reach new developers and customers the server product can't stay a paid product. Keeping it a payed product, even with much better performance and features, it will never be able to pass the first selection match against PHP, Ruby, Python, Java. If LassoSoft then also was able to get it included with the main os distros from the beginning so that there would not even be an install step for the customer, then this could really make the product gain mainstream acceptance.

I believe that the new LassoSoft company should focus on what makes the developer fly, the best IDE tool on the market. With full syntax support, even for external custom libraries, live runtime debugging, integrated framework templates built on best practices, integrated knowledge base and support articles, built in compiler, built in versioning and release directly to your server support. If a developer wants to keep on coding lasso in BBEdit and the like, then fine he may do so and for free. But any serious developer that use lasso on a daily basis should find no excuse for not using and paying for this tool.
At the same time should be introduced some kind of training and certification path to raise the status of developers and help customers get a feeling that there is some kind of infrastructure/momentum/control behind Lasso.
This is where I feel the money will come from and what I think a developer/customer will be willing to pay for without asking to many "whats and whys". In a way this is similar to what Zend has done with PHP.

So my priority for LassoSoft would be to get started on the all new and shiny LassoStudio asap. I guess most of this work could be done while the Kyle resource is happily (now) coding away on 8.7 and 9.


Thanks,

Petrus


6 dec 2010 kl. 06.04 skrev Clive Bruton:

>
> On 6 Dec 2010, at 04:24, Patrick Larkin wrote:
>
>> We use software that charges yearly maintenance which entitles the purchaser to all upgrades and unlimited technical support during the period.  The support is the main driver for us with some products requiring much more support than others.
>
> I don't remember the details, but isn't that the model that WebStar wanted us to buy into?
>
> Do you think that Lasso is a product that warrants a yearly maintenance and unlimited technical support contract? Do you think anyone is capable of delivering that with the current and/or a reducing userbase? Would you buy the unlimited technical support if the product was free/opensource? Could you buy the technical support for a different, but free, product (ie PHP or Python)? Hasn't the technical support angle been a part of the Lasso model in the past anyway?
>
> I expect that Treefrog would like answers to those questions too.
>
>
> -- Clive
>
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Alex Pilson-2
In reply to this post by stevepiercy
On Dec 6, 2010, at 5:53 AM, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote:

>
> The big question on my mind is whether any effort will be spent on  
> an upgrade version for 8.5.x at any point?  I think LS should do so  
> because it would reduce the need of developers to migrate away from  
> Lasso in search of stability and performance, and likely never  
> return.  LS should cultivate good relationships with its customers,  
> and it can do this through its product releases and services.


8.7* is a MUST HAVE (broken pipe fix, apache memory, etc...) or I  
think TF will see Lasso 9 not get adopted. For most of the current  
user base I think moving to 9 might take too much time and money to  
migrate. I currently run 8.5.6 for MANY sites, so getting a more  
improved version of that would buy time to get 9 right then eventually  
allow people like me to move to 9 in a more comfortable manner.

*And as stated by several other people in other threads, I would  
gladly pay full price for a 8.7 if it fixed the main outstanding issues.

Alex

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Gordon McLean
+1 for this .....
On 6 Dec 2010, at 13:22, alex pilson wrote:

> *And as stated by several other people in other threads, I would gladly pay full price for a 8.7 if it fixed the main outstanding issues.

Cheers
Gordon McLean

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Marc Vos
This voting site doesn't work. (http://listening.lassosoft.com/)

I vote, add a comment, go back, votes gone. Start over, vote for many points, go away, come back, votes gone. Sidebar says 'Welcome Marc' and 'Update your password' and 'Logout'.

Does this mean I can vote over and over again?

- -
Marc


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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Rachel Guthrie
Hi Marc,
Thanks for the feedback - this is a new issue that we need to investigate. Fortunately many others have voted and commented (comments need moderating to show), so I hope this is just a version issue -

what OS are you using and what browser version?

Cheers
Rachel


On 2010-12-06, at 9:01 AM, Marc Vos wrote:

> This voting site doesn't work. (http://listening.lassosoft.com/)
>
> I vote, add a comment, go back, votes gone. Start over, vote for many points, go away, come back, votes gone. Sidebar says 'Welcome Marc' and 'Update your password' and 'Logout'.
>
> Does this mean I can vote over and over again?
>
> - -
> Marc
>
>
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