[ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Göran Törnquist-2
Knowing that you're a long time fellow of the community, I know to
respect your input. I happen to have a different point of view though.

While I agree that the rethorics are the same, the circumstances are
different. I lack the skills of burying the facts in preciously worded
sentences, so I'll just rack them up instead.

* different dynamics of the new owner.
* Lasso is _not_ incorporated in the same company.
* The world of the web is not the same as it was at the time of the
acquisition by Omnipilot.
* The word listening has never, ever, before been uttered in this context.
* Everybody is aware of the competition and their business models.
Owners, users and clients.

On a side note. What you refer to as being the Lasso version almost
making the platform die, is probably the infamous UTF-8 version, a.k.a.
Lasso Professional 7.

I have a few comments on that version. First of all, Lasso was a
*leader* at that point. Almost no one was considering the use of UTF-8
being important. At least none of the competition. OmniPilot took a big
risk implementing what PHP, Ruby, Python, Perl etc. *still* doesn't have
consistent support for. Another product, RealBasic, almost died doing
the same thing a year earlier than OmniPilot with Lasso. I perceived the
experience the same. Anyone who had old solutions and made only
incremental changes had major problems, while anyone who reviewed all of
their code made the transition in a good form.

Did I mention that the major competition still has no support for UTF-8.
It happens to be the major reason to why I'm still around. It also
happens to be something of the past when it comes to Lasso. It's also
the version of Lasso I bought, and skipped because of the obvious pain
to move to it!

The major competition still has to suffer through that. Just check out
searches for the simple query:
http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+ruby
http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+php 
<http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+ruby>
http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+python 
<http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+ruby>
http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+perl 
<http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+ruby>

They all spell the same thing. Inconsistency and partially hacked solutions.

/Göran

On 2010-12-04 17.23, Waters, Thomas C wrote:

> Clive says this very well. Any of us who have used Lasso understand it has real value to a web developer. But what is being said now is what was said when Omnipilot bought Lasso, and again when it became Lassosoft. The rhetoric is the same, and how will the results be any different.
>
> > From my perspective, the decision to do such a massive overhaul with v9 was both very needed, and a bigger project than was feasible to pull off well.
>
> I've been watching Evernote grow, and every time I listen to the CEO, I can't help but think that there was a moment in Lasso history where Lasso was poised for the type of growth and success that product is enjoying.  Today, I think that it may be possible for Lasso to be a great, stable, easy to use niche product with a small but extremely loyal user base. Folks will come and go, but will the user base grow tremendously? I don't know.
>
> There was one past Lasso version change that really brought Lasso close to dying. I don't remember- was it 7 or 8 or earlier? I just remember that it really stressed everything to the very edge, even though the work of the rewrite seemed worth it in the end.
> --
> Thomas Waters
> Director of New Media
> University of Pittsburgh School of Pharmacy
> 412-383-7471
> [hidden email]
> http://www.pharmacy.pitt.edu
>
>
> On Dec 3, 2010, at 10:25 PM, Clive Bruton wrote:
>
>> On 4 Dec 2010, at 02:12, Sean Stephens wrote:
>>
>>> The first time time you make a mistake, it's OK. The second time,
>>> it's unconscionable. Help us from making the same mistake once!
>> I hate to be sceptical, but this seems like a bit of a coda to me -
>> ie, I cast my mind back to the rebirth of Lasso with the transfer to
>> OmniPilot.
>>
>> What appears to be missing, and we can all sense you're as keen as
>> mustard, is a new business model that's going to make Lasso this week
>> something different to what it was last week - I don't think that can
>> mean throwing money/labour at it, that's been done. Perhaps what is
>> to happen next is implied in your posts, it's certainly not explicit
>> (to me), so... I think I still have the same questions today that I
>> did yesterday.
>>
>>
>> -- Clive
>>
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Fabrizio Carioni
In reply to this post by Eric Landmann
Happy to hear these good news.

I really hope Lasso 8.x will be supported for a long while and that Lasso 9 will be a competitive product also from the point of view of the ease of use and management, which is probably the main reason that kept us on this platform until today.
The lack of a basic feature like easy management of scheduled events kind of disappointed me in Lasso 9, particularly because it's things like these that make lasso so nice and straightforward IMO.

But maybe this is very personal.

Ciaooo
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

stevepiercy
In reply to this post by Göran Törnquist-2
On 12/4/10 at 6:08 PM, [hidden email] (Göran Törnquist) pronounced:

>The major competition still has to suffer through that. Just
>check out searches for the simple query:
>http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+ruby
>http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+php 
>http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+python http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+perl

Google has way too much noise.  It's better to go to straight to
the documentation and examine the latest releases.

Python:
http://www.python.org/doc//current/howto/unicode.html#python-s-unicode-support
http://www.python.org/doc//current/tutorial/interpreter.html
http://www.python.org/doc//current/howto/webservers.html

...and its many web frameworks and CMSs:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks
http://wiki.python.org/moin/ContentManagementSystems

UTF-8 was one of the first factors of my ongoing analysis and
evaluation.  I didn't get very far with PHP (a total cluster to
search through), Ruby (new Unicode library supposedly handles
issues, but too new to evaluate) or Java (one can only read so
much UTF-8 technical jargon), but I'm certain other developers
can fill in the blanks.

I would agree that the simplicity of Lasso's implementation of
UTF-8 encoding is elegant from the newbie developer perspective
(set a file's encoding to UTF8 with BOM and forget about it),
but it is in conflict with the dominant paradigm of "thou shalt
not BOM" in script files amongst developers coming from the *nix
universe.  One is not better than the other, just different ways
of doing things.

--steve

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Soquel, CA
<[hidden email]>                  <http://www.StevePiercy.com/>


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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Kyle Jessup-2

On Dec 4, 2010, at 7:32 PM, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote:

> On 12/4/10 at 6:08 PM, [hidden email] (Göran Törnquist) pronounced:
>
>> The major competition still has to suffer through that. Just check out searches for the simple query:
>> http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+ruby
>> http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+php http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+python http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+perl
>
> Google has way too much noise.  It's better to go to straight to the documentation and examine the latest releases.
>
> Python:
> http://www.python.org/doc//current/howto/unicode.html#python-s-unicode-support
> http://www.python.org/doc//current/tutorial/interpreter.html
> http://www.python.org/doc//current/howto/webservers.html
>
> ...and its many web frameworks and CMSs:
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/ContentManagementSystems
>
> UTF-8 was one of the first factors of my ongoing analysis and evaluation.  I didn't get very far with PHP (a total cluster to search through), Ruby (new Unicode library supposedly handles issues, but too new to evaluate) or Java (one can only read so much UTF-8 technical jargon), but I'm certain other developers can fill in the blanks.
>
> I would agree that the simplicity of Lasso's implementation of UTF-8 encoding is elegant from the newbie developer perspective (set a file's encoding to UTF8 with BOM and forget about it), but it is in conflict with the dominant paradigm of "thou shalt not BOM" in script files amongst developers coming from the *nix universe.  

That's not even required anymore. Lasso 9 sniffs the intended charset, but uses UTF-8 as the fall-back for source files. If it sees a BOM, that's cool, but it's not required.

Additionally, Lasso 9 *doesn't* use UTF-8. It uses a UTF-32 internal string representation. This means you get completely accurate string->size as well as sensical positions within the string regardless of the language you are working in.

Example:

python tests:

len('ซญ๚๑')

-> 12

'ซญ๚๑'[1]

-> ?

lasso 9 tests:

'ซญ๚๑'->size

-> 4

'ซญ๚๑'->get(2)

-> ญ

Nice attempt, I suppose...
-Kyle

> One is not better than the other, just different ways of doing things.
>
> --steve
>
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Göran Törnquist-2

On 4 Dec 2010, at 17:08, Göran Törnquist wrote:

> * different dynamics of the new owner.
> * Lasso is _not_ incorporated in the same company.

Can you expand upon what you mean by these two points - I think I'm  
not really understanding the issues you are highlighting.


-- Clive
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Kyle Jessup-2
In reply to this post by Kyle Jessup-2
>> [...]
>> I would agree that the simplicity of Lasso's implementation of UTF-8 encoding is elegant from the newbie developer perspective (set a file's encoding to UTF8 with BOM and forget about it), but it is in conflict with the dominant paradigm of "thou shalt not BOM" in script files amongst developers coming from the *nix universe.  
>
> That's not even required anymore. Lasso 9 sniffs the intended charset, but uses UTF-8 as the fall-back for source files. If it sees a BOM, that's cool, but it's not required.
>
> Additionally, Lasso 9 *doesn't* use UTF-8. It uses a UTF-32 internal string representation. This means you get completely accurate string->size as well as sensical positions within the string regardless of the language you are working in.
>
> Example:
>
> python tests:
>
> len('ซญ๚๑')
>
> -> 12
>
> 'ซญ๚๑'[1]
>
> -> ?

You have to explicitly convert to get the right answer:

len(unicode('ซญ๚๑', 'UTF-8'))

-> 4

I figured there was a way, I had to look it up :)
-Kyle

> lasso 9 tests:
>
> 'ซญ๚๑'->size
>
> -> 4
>
> 'ซญ๚๑'->get(2)
>
> -> ญ
>
> Nice attempt, I suppose...
> -Kyle
>
>> One is not better than the other, just different ways of doing things.
>>
>> --steve
>>
>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>> Steve Piercy               Web Site Builder               Soquel, CA
>> <[hidden email]>                  <http://www.StevePiercy.com/>
>>
>>
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Loaded questions get loaded answers

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Sean Stephens-2

On 3 Dec 2010, at 21:59, Sean Stephens wrote:

> http://listening.lassosoft.com/

I just wanted to comment on this poll question:

> Lasso is expensive
>
> PHP, Ruby, Python, etc., are all free languages that have  
> essentially the same (if not more) functionality and resources than  
> any current version of Lasso.  We don't mind paying for a product  
> that delivers extra levels of features or functionality not found  
> elsewhere.  But with the current version of Lasso, what exactly are  
> we paying for?
>

I think that no one that already has a licence for Lasso, and has  
developed projects in Lasso, really cares about what the cost of a  
licence is. This is because the major cost to them is that they have  
spent a great deal of time learning and getting to grips with Lasso -  
an investment many times greater than the cost of a licence.

So, you don't really need to convince this audience that the licence  
cost is worth paying, or not - they already voted. The people you  
need to convince are the people looking for a development platform.  
Do *they* want to invest their time in a platform that is free for  
them to use, but where they have to get their clients/users to buy  
licences and convince hosting providers/IT bods to install and  
support such? The second part of this is the tricky bit, where you  
are fighting an uphill battle against entrenched prejudices (whether  
that's OS or platform), widespread support and... "free".


-- Clive

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

stevepiercy
In reply to this post by Kyle Jessup-2
On 12/4/10 at 8:23 PM, [hidden email] (Kyle Jessup) pronounced:

>>Example:
>>
>>python tests:
>>
>>len('ซญ๚๑')
>>
>>-> 12
>>
>>'ซญ๚๑'[1]
>>
>>-> ?
>
>You have to explicitly convert to get the right answer:
>
>len(unicode('ซญ๚๑', 'UTF-8'))
>
>-> 4
>
>I figured there was a way, I had to look it up :)

Yup.  ;)

And you provide an example of two very prominent factors in my
analysis of languages in my future:
(1)  It would be a challenge for me to switch from the
familiarity of Lasso to something less familiar like python.  
Score a major point for sticking with Lasso.
(2)  But then one must also be aware that one can look it up for
python and Lasso 8.5 with comparative ease over 9 at this point
in time.  Score a half-point for Lasso 8.5 and 9 (since most of
8.5 works on 9), but a full point for python on documentation.

--steve

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Bil Corry-3
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
Clive Bruton wrote on 12/4/2010 2:52 AM:

>
> On 4 Dec 2010, at 04:42, Bil Corry wrote:
>
>> I believe it's possible to retain the existing business model and
>> keep it sustainable so long as stable, predictable, compelling
>> upgrades are released.  I don't see it growing the Lasso user base
>> by much, but I do see the existing Lasso user base holding steady
>> and getting value out of Lasso for years to come.
>
> I don't know what the figures are, but it already seems proven to me
> that the income level doesn't provide enough for continuing
> development. So, while throwing labour and money at L9 may get it to
> the stage that all of us want to adopt it, there is still the problem
> of where the ongoing funding comes from for 9.x and X.x.

The income level wasn't there because the paid upgrades were spread too far apart.  With an annual paid upgrade that is compelling, I think there's enough of a customer base to support Lasso on-going.


> I doubt many of us can be persuaded to spend "more"
> on licences, or buy annual licences/support packages,

I think the majority of customers still using Lasso are going to continue to use Lasso -- "free" isn't a factor for them to switch because they prefer the ease of Lasso.  Once Lasso 9 reaches "easy", those customers will upgrade.


> or even
> contribute to the "Lasso Foundation"...

The idea there was that you'd contribute the price of a license with the knowledge that you wouldn't have to buy another license ever again.  And those who wanted commercial support, there was going to be an option for that.  Doesn't matter now though.


> and I don't know what the
> other options may be, but the same cycle again isn't going to change
> the outcome off the last cycle (except that someone is going to be
> even less willing to contribute another round of funding).

Sure, if they don't have regular, paid upgrades that people actually want, then yes, it will fail.  My point was that by offering regular, paid upgrades, it will do fine.  However, I don't see any growth in that model, but that may not be a goal.


- Bil

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Brian K. Middendorf
In reply to this post by stevepiercy
On Dec 4, 2010, at 7:21 PM, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote:

> (2)  But then one must also be aware that one can look it up for python and Lasso 8.5 with comparative ease over 9 at this point in time.  Score a half-point for Lasso 8.5 and 9 (since most of 8.5 works on 9), but a full point for python on documentation.

It's been awhile since I have dabbled in foreign (non-English) languages, but doesn't "9" mean "no" in some other language?  Seems like 9 has been a resounding "no" thus far.

-brian.




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Re: Loaded questions get loaded answers

stevepiercy
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
On 12/5/10 at 1:27 AM, [hidden email] (Clive Bruton) pronounced:

>So, you don't really need to convince this audience that the
>licence cost is worth paying, or not - they already voted. The
>people you need to convince are the people looking for a
>development platform. Do *they* want to invest their time in a
>platform that is free for them to use, but where they have to
>get their clients/users to buy licences and convince hosting
>providers/IT bods to install and support such? The second part
>of this is the tricky bit, where you are fighting an uphill
>battle against entrenched prejudices (whether that's OS or
>platform), widespread support and... "free".

To add to this point, compare the open source nature of python
to the commercial nature of Lasso (or any other commercial
product) in regards to its product development cycle.

http://python.org/
Scroll down to the lower left to see a release schedule
calendar.  They schedule releases, including a listing of
specific fixes and improvements, and hit their release dates.  
You know what's coming.

There's an open bug tracker, so you don't waste time wondering
why your code does not work when it is a bug in the product:
http://bugs.python.org/

Feature requests, including those that were proposed, accepted
and rejected (PEPs):
http://www.python.org/dev/peps/

The open communication within python is refreshing and can help
a developer plan their project.

Obviously, companies that manage commercial products may need to
keep such details closely guarded, and I respect that.  I have
heard there was this thing called the LPA which had access to
BlueBugs, but have not heard much about it in years.  It's just
another factor to consider for determining my future development.

--steve

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Göran Törnquist-2
In reply to this post by stevepiercy
Hi Steve!
Yeah, I completely agree that the way it came out in the end was simple. The other languages needs to update every single method to use the utf-8 library to be adhering to utf-8 in a predictable way.

On that note. The BOM is where I believe Lasso should have included a tool that sniffed a source tree and converted it to utf-8 without a BOM. It should have been the only supported encoding except for ASCII that is a subset of utf-8. That tool alone would have been vastly useful at that time.

/Göran

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 5, 2010, at 1:32, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12/4/10 at 6:08 PM, [hidden email] (Göran Törnquist) pronounced:
>
>> The major competition still has to suffer through that. Just check out searches for the simple query:
>> http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+ruby
>> http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+php http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+python http://www.google.com/search?q=utf-8+and+perl
>
> Google has way too much noise.  It's better to go to straight to the documentation and examine the latest releases.
>
> Python:
> http://www.python.org/doc//current/howto/unicode.html#python-s-unicode-support
> http://www.python.org/doc//current/tutorial/interpreter.html
> http://www.python.org/doc//current/howto/webservers.html
>
> ...and its many web frameworks and CMSs:
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/ContentManagementSystems
>
> UTF-8 was one of the first factors of my ongoing analysis and evaluation.  I didn't get very far with PHP (a total cluster to search through), Ruby (new Unicode library supposedly handles issues, but too new to evaluate) or Java (one can only read so much UTF-8 technical jargon), but I'm certain other developers can fill in the blanks.
>
> I would agree that the simplicity of Lasso's implementation of UTF-8 encoding is elegant from the newbie developer perspective (set a file's encoding to UTF8 with BOM and forget about it), but it is in conflict with the dominant paradigm of "thou shalt not BOM" in script files amongst developers coming from the *nix universe.  One is not better than the other, just different ways of doing things.
>
> --steve
>
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Göran Törnquist-2
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
I kind of knew it was going to come back at me :)

On Dec 5, 2010, at 2:14, Clive Bruton <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 4 Dec 2010, at 17:08, Göran Törnquist wrote:
>
>> * different dynamics of the new owner.

OmniPilot, as far as I understand it, was a company with a set of products relying on Lasso. The products supported the business, but was not the core business.

Treefrog, which is owned by the new owners of LassoSoft, lives and breathes web development in Lasso. As such, Sean is an advocate of the platform together with the software they have built to support the web development.

It's a fine difference, but an important one.


>> * Lasso is _not_ incorporated in the same company.

If LassoSoft can't be profitable on it's own, it will die, but to kill a company is harder than to lay off a product within a company. So, there will be more options to take in external capital that will not affect the ongoing business of Treefrog.

/Göran


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Re: Loaded questions get loaded answers

Göran Törnquist-2
In reply to this post by stevepiercy
On Dec 5, 2010, at 6:20, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder
<[hidden email]> wrote:

 > On 12/5/10 at 1:27 AM, [hidden email] (Clive Bruton) pronounced:
 >
 >> So, you don't really need to convince this audience that the licence
cost is worth paying, or not - they already voted. The people you need
to convince are the people looking for a development platform. Do *they*
want to invest their time in a platform that is free for them to use,
but where they have to get their clients/users to buy licences and
convince hosting providers/IT bods to install and support such? The
second part of this is the tricky bit, where you are fighting an uphill
battle against entrenched prejudices (whether that's OS or platform),
widespread support and... "free".
 >
 > To add to this point, compare the open source nature of python to the
commercial nature of Lasso (or any other commercial product) in regards
to its product development cycle.
 >
 > http://python.org/
 > Scroll down to the lower left to see a release schedule calendar.  
They schedule releases, including a listing of specific fixes and
improvements, and hit their release dates.  You know what's coming.
 >
 > There's an open bug tracker, so you don't waste time wondering why
your code does not work when it is a bug in the product:
 > http://bugs.python.org/
 >
 > Feature requests, including those that were proposed, accepted and
rejected (PEPs):
 > http://www.python.org/dev/peps/
 >
 > The open communication within python is refreshing and can help a
developer plan their project.
 >
 > Obviously, companies that manage commercial products may need to keep
such details closely guarded, and I respect that.  I have heard there
was this thing called the LPA which had access to BlueBugs, but have not
heard much about it in years.  It's just another factor to consider for
determining my future development.
 >
 > --steve

I am in complete agreement that this is a far better model for planning
in collaboration with the present user base. It may be suboptimal for
bringing out new groundbreaking features that leaves the competition
behind.

If there was more open communication, then it would be easier to
knownthat individual efforts to enhance the product environment would
not be overthrown while in the middle of development.

/Göran

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Re: Loaded questions get loaded answers

Clive Bruton

On 5 Dec 2010, at 10:39, Göran Törnquist wrote:

> I am in complete agreement that this is a far better model for  
> planning in collaboration with the present user base. It may be  
> suboptimal for bringing out new groundbreaking features that leaves  
> the competition behind.

Do you think developers really jump from platform to platform for  
that next killer feature?


-- Clive
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Bil Corry-3

On 5 Dec 2010, at 03:26, Bil Corry wrote:

> The income level wasn't there because the paid upgrades were spread  
> too far apart.  With an annual paid upgrade that is compelling, I  
> think there's enough of a customer base to support Lasso on-going.

I think this model doesn't work either - bugs in old versions never  
get fixed and people get bitter about that. They also think that the  
"upgrades" are mostly just puff and bug fixes.


-- Clive

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Göran Törnquist-2

On 5 Dec 2010, at 07:41, Göran Törnquist wrote:

>>> * different dynamics of the new owner.
>
> OmniPilot, as far as I understand it, was a company with a set of  
> products relying on Lasso. The products supported the business, but  
> was not the core business.
>
> Treefrog, which is owned by the new owners of LassoSoft, lives and  
> breathes web development in Lasso. As such, Sean is an advocate of  
> the platform together with the software they have built to support  
> the web development.
>
> It's a fine difference, but an important one.

I think this is too fine a difference to make any difference.

>
>
>>> * Lasso is _not_ incorporated in the same company.
>
> If LassoSoft can't be profitable on it's own, it will die, but to  
> kill a company is harder than to lay off a product within a  
> company. So, there will be more options to take in external capital  
> that will not affect the ongoing business of Treefrog.

There's a converse argument - Treefrog has made Lasso separate  
because it doesn't want to take the risk of it taking down Treefrog  
too. That's essentially why people form Ltd/Inc companies, to  
separate the finances of two units so that one failure doesn't bring  
down the whole thing.


-- Clive
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Trevor Borgmeier
In reply to this post by Brian K. Middendorf
on 12/4/10 9:27 PM Brian K. Middendorf wrote:
> On Dec 4, 2010, at 7:21 PM, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote:
>
>> (2)  But then one must also be aware that one can look it up for python and Lasso 8.5 with comparative ease over 9 at this point in time.  Score a half-point for Lasso 8.5 and 9 (since most of 8.5 works on 9), but a full point for python on documentation.
> It's been awhile since I have dabbled in foreign (non-English) languages, but doesn't "9" mean "no" in some other language?  Seems like 9 has been a resounding "no" thus far.
>
> -brian.
>
>
I'd say LP9 is greatly appreciated and praised -- mostly it's just the
lack of docs bringing negativity.

-Trevor

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Re: Loaded questions get loaded answers

Göran Törnquist-2
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
Nope, but I think that staying behind every time makes a dent every time.

Groundbreaking features makes developers consider a development environment. What can not be found elsewhere might be just what's the difference between getting or loosing the new client. One feature alone makes as little as a drop makes a glass of beer.

/Göran

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 5, 2010, at 15:36, Clive Bruton <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 5 Dec 2010, at 10:39, Göran Törnquist wrote:
>
>> I am in complete agreement that this is a far better model for planning in collaboration with the present user base. It may be suboptimal for bringing out new groundbreaking features that leaves the competition behind.
>
> Do you think developers really jump from platform to platform for that next killer feature?
>
>
> -- Clive
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Göran Törnquist-2
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
On Dec 5, 2010, at 15:43, Clive Bruton <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 5 Dec 2010, at 07:41, Göran Törnquist wrote:
>
>>>> * different dynamics of the new owner.
>>
>> OmniPilot, as far as I understand it, was a company with a set of products relying on Lasso. The products supported the business, but was not the core business.
>>
>> Treefrog, which is owned by the new owners of LassoSoft, lives and breathes web development in Lasso. As such, Sean is an advocate of the platform together with the software they have built to support the web development.
>>
>> It's a fine difference, but an important one.
>
> I think this is too fine a difference to make any difference.

Well, I'm of a different opinion. The future will tell.

>
>>
>>
>>>> * Lasso is _not_ incorporated in the same company.
>>
>> If LassoSoft can't be profitable on it's own, it will die, but to kill a company is harder than to lay off a product within a company. So, there will be more options to take in external capital that will not affect the ongoing business of Treefrog.
>
> There's a converse argument - Treefrog has made Lasso separate because it doesn't want to take the risk of it taking down Treefrog too. That's essentially why people form Ltd/Inc companies, to separate the finances of two units so that one failure doesn't bring down the whole thing.

Anyone sane wants to limit risks and liability. The key thing is that having them as a single business unit would risk the ownership of a successful business. I'm obviously speculating here.  Why don't you ask Sean if you're interested in why?

/Göran
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