[ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

John May-2
Our VTrak is working great (SAS Fibre Channel goodness!), so I say bring
it on!

        - John


On 12/12/10 10:21 AM, Jim Van Heule wrote:

> I predict a 3rd party Apple endorsed XServe replacement will be
> announced in the 1st quarter 2011. I'll go even further and say that
> it will be offered on the online Apple Store.
>
> Jim Van Heule
>
> On Dec 12, 2010, at 10:13 AM, John May wrote:
>
>> On 12/11/10 9:47 PM, Clive Bruton wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12 Dec 2010, at 01:58, Deco Rior wrote:
>>>
>>>> However, it would not surprise me for Apple to offer their own
>>>> Cloud services built around OS X server making a few of
>>>> us....very happy :-)
>>>
>>> I think that may satisfy people doing web and mail, but it's not
>>> going to cut it for file serving, print serving and home
>>> folders/accounts.
>>>
>>> I'd like to think that Apple would licence the server OS to
>>> other hardware vendors, but past experience suggests that's not
>>> going to happen.
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Clive
>>>
>>
>>
>> Agreed.  Just because "cloud computing" is the hip new term doesn't
>> mean it makes sense in all cases.  For a company using OS X Server
>> at one location, there's no good reason to move it off into the
>> cloud.
>>
>> I think Apple's new datacenter is going to be for consumer market
>> stuff - more MobileMe services, iTunes streaming, etc.  Despite
>> being a huge datacenter, I could not see it having the horsepower,
>> nor Apple the expertise, to offer any serious enterprise servers in
>> the cloud.
>>
>> Needless to say, all of this is FUD either way.  Much better to
>> wait until the fat lady sings in January or February than make your
>> business plans off of guesses.
>>
>> As for us, if we gotta use Mac Pros to keep hosting on OS X, we'll
>> do it.  I keep saying if you can give me a 32 core Mac Pro (and
>> this weill *easily* happen very soon), I'll throw it in the racks,
>> as that's close enough to the Xserve density.  IMHO, OS X is the
>> most elegant OS out there, Linux included, and I'm not going to
>> roll over and succumb to mediocrity ;)
>>
>> - John
>>

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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Jim Van Heule-3

On 12 Dec 2010, at 15:21, Jim Van Heule wrote:

> I predict a 3rd party Apple endorsed XServe replacement will be  
> announced in the 1st quarter 2011. I'll go even further and say  
> that it will be offered on the online Apple Store.

I'd like to think so, but I think it won't. The reason why I don't  
think this will happen is that if it was going to happen they would  
have already announced it - Apple seems to be getting into the swing  
of pre-announcing products. Also, if you look at the discontinuation  
of the Xserve RAID there was an immediate replacement available  
through the Apple store. This is something different, this is "there  
is no Xserve, there is no replacement for Xserve".

But as others have said, we'll all know in a few months, and I'm sure  
we've all got other things to be worrying about.


-- Clive

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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Trevor Borgmeier
In reply to this post by John May-2
I agree.  I'd like for apple to offer a good hardware solution.  I
haven't moved anything to cloud servers and take comfort in being able
to physically access the drives.  Though I'll likely be moving fully to
CentOS, I'd like to see OS X open up the server version to alternate
hardware, but that's a very un-Apple thing to do.

-Trevor

on 12/12/10 9:13 AM John May wrote:

> On 12/11/10 9:47 PM, Clive Bruton wrote:
>>
>> On 12 Dec 2010, at 01:58, Deco Rior wrote:
>>
>>> However, it would not surprise me for Apple to offer their own Cloud
>>> services built around OS X server making a few of us....very happy :-)
>>
>> I think that may satisfy people doing web and mail, but it's not going
>> to cut it for file serving, print serving and home folders/accounts.
>>
>> I'd like to think that Apple would licence the server OS to other
>> hardware vendors, but past experience suggests that's not going to
>> happen.
>>
>>
>> -- Clive
>>
>
>
> Agreed.  Just because "cloud computing" is the hip new term doesn't
> mean it makes sense in all cases.  For a company using OS X Server at
> one location, there's no good reason to move it off into the cloud.
>
> I think Apple's new datacenter is going to be for consumer market
> stuff - more MobileMe services, iTunes streaming, etc.  Despite being
> a huge datacenter, I could not see it having the horsepower, nor Apple
> the expertise, to offer any serious enterprise servers in the cloud.
>
> Needless to say, all of this is FUD either way.  Much better to wait
> until the fat lady sings in January or February than make your
> business plans off of guesses.
>
> As for us, if we gotta use Mac Pros to keep hosting on OS X, we'll do
> it.  I keep saying if you can give me a 32 core Mac Pro (and this
> weill *easily* happen very soon), I'll throw it in the racks, as
> that's close enough to the Xserve density.  IMHO, OS X is the most
> elegant OS out there, Linux included, and I'm not going to roll over
> and succumb to mediocrity ;)
>
>     - John
>

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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Johan Solve
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
The note says "Apple will not be developing a future version of
Xserve". Looks like carefully weighed words.

Apple have made more surprising moves before.

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 3:52 AM, Clive Bruton <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 12 Dec 2010, at 02:33, Bruce Robertson wrote:
>
>> We do not know anything about its replacement.
>
> The "note" from Apple explicitly says there will be no replacement.
>
>        http://images.apple.com/xserve/pdf/L422277A_Xserve_Guide.pdf
>
> If there were some hardware replacement in the works they wouldn't be
> suggesting the use of minis and MacPros.
>
>
> -- Clive
>
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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Clive Bruton

On 12 Dec 2010, at 18:51, Johan Solve wrote:

> The note says "Apple will not be developing a future version of
> Xserve". Looks like carefully weighed words.

If you wanted to really argue this down to the bone, then that would  
be your argument - is there a distinction between an "Xserve" and  
"something else" that we would recognise as "server hardware"? I  
would argue "no", but you are arguing "yes".

Let's put it another way, would we expect that Apple stating that it  
was discontinuing the iPhone, lead it to, shortly after, declare that  
it was introducing a hand-held mobile phone device? I would again  
argue "no", but you would seem to argue "yes".


-- Clive

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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Alex Pilson-2
Semantics are often used in these types of situations for legal and possibly marketing reasons. Just because they are not continuing development of the Xserve, doesn't mean they will not eventually introduce something new that is for that market segment.

On Dec 12, 2010, at 2:34 PM, Clive Bruton wrote:

>
> On 12 Dec 2010, at 18:51, Johan Solve wrote:
>
>> The note says "Apple will not be developing a future version of
>> Xserve". Looks like carefully weighed words.
>
> If you wanted to really argue this down to the bone, then that would be your argument - is there a distinction between an "Xserve" and "something else" that we would recognise as "server hardware"? I would argue "no", but you are arguing "yes".
>
> Let's put it another way, would we expect that Apple stating that it was discontinuing the iPhone, lead it to, shortly after, declare that it was introducing a hand-held mobile phone device? I would again argue "no", but you would seem to argue "yes".
>
>
> -- Clive


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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Wade Maxfield
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
On 13/12/2010, at 8:34 AM, Clive Bruton wrote:

> On 12 Dec 2010, at 18:51, Johan Solve wrote:
>
>> The note says "Apple will not be developing a future version of
>> Xserve". Looks like carefully weighed words.
>
> If you wanted to really argue this down to the bone, then that would be your argument - is there a distinction between an "Xserve" and "something else" that we would recognise as "server hardware"? I would argue "no", but you are arguing "yes".

I'm with Johan on this.  Apple carefully selects everything they say. Their wording in this case leaves it open for them to introduce some form of hardware that would serve [some/most of] the market that the Xserve did.

 - Wade


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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

stevepiercy
On 12/13/10 at 9:25 AM, [hidden email] (Wade Maxfield) pronounced:

>I'm with Johan on this.  Apple carefully selects everything they say.
>Their wording in this case leaves it open for them to introduce some
>form of hardware that would serve [some/most of] the market that the
>Xserve did.

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1811646

I've already pre-ordered 4 to place them equidistantly.

--steve

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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

bfr00
In reply to this post by Wade Maxfield
[some/most/more]

Bruce

On Dec 12, 2010, at 12:25 PM, Wade Maxfield wrote:

> On 13/12/2010, at 8:34 AM, Clive Bruton wrote:
>
>> On 12 Dec 2010, at 18:51, Johan Solve wrote:
>>
>>> The note says "Apple will not be developing a future version of
>>> Xserve". Looks like carefully weighed words.
>>
>> If you wanted to really argue this down to the bone, then that would be your argument - is there a distinction between an "Xserve" and "something else" that we would recognise as "server hardware"? I would argue "no", but you are arguing "yes".
>
> I'm with Johan on this.  Apple carefully selects everything they say. Their wording in this case leaves it open for them to introduce some form of hardware that would serve [some/most of] the market that the Xserve did.
>
> - Wade
>
>
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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Jonathan Guthrie-3
In reply to this post by stevepiercy
Ohhh, it's shiny :)

iWant one.


On 2010-12-12, at 3:48 PM, Steve Piercy - Web Site Builder wrote:

> http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1811646
>
> I've already pre-ordered 4 to place them equidistantly.
>
> --steve

Jono

----------------------------
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[hidden email]
LassoSoft Inc.


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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by Wade Maxfield

On 12 Dec 2010, at 20:25, Wade Maxfield wrote:

> Apple carefully selects everything they say. Their wording in this  
> case leaves it open for them to introduce some form of hardware  
> that would serve [some/most of] the market that the Xserve did.

Yes, and they carefully explain what that is: mini and Mac Pro servers.


-- Clive

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Seth Ganahl
In reply to this post by Chris Corwin
+1

FileMaker is probably about 50% of my consulting, and Lasso is the other
50%.

It's the same for my in-house developer position at the University, although
it's getting harder and harder to hold out against the .net/SQL legions.

-seth


On 12/7/10 9:54 AM, "Chris Corwin" <[hidden email]> did quoth:

> I would be *super* interested in knowing how common it is for
> LassoSoft customers to to still (?!!?) be using FileMaker (!?!)

-------------------------------------------------------
Seth C. Ganahl  <[hidden email]>
<http://www.ganahlconsulting.com>
-------------------------------------------------------



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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Erik Vandermey - WebCentrix, Inc.
In reply to this post by Jim Van Heule-3
I'm leaning towards the same prediction, (i.e. outside endorsed vendor). My money is on Active Storage.

On Dec 12, 2010, at 9:21 AM, Jim Van Heule wrote:

> I predict a 3rd party Apple endorsed XServe replacement will be announced in the 1st quarter 2011. I'll go even further and say that it will be offered on the online Apple Store.

Regards,
---
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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

decorior
My money is on cloud... like Amazon :-)


On Dec 13, 2010, at 9:54 AM, List Subscriptions wrote:

> I'm leaning towards the same prediction, (i.e. outside endorsed vendor). My money is on Active Storage.
>
> On Dec 12, 2010, at 9:21 AM, Jim Van Heule wrote:
>
>> I predict a 3rd party Apple endorsed XServe replacement will be announced in the 1st quarter 2011. I'll go even further and say that it will be offered on the online Apple Store.
>
> Regards,
> ---
> Tech Support • [hidden email]http://webcentrix.net
> WebCentrix, Inc. • Web Hosting/Co-Location/Dedicated Servers  • Kerio Connect/Control Reseller
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Deco Rior
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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Gordon McLean
If they go for it at all I would agree with Deco, but I do wonder if they would actually bother - what's the benefit for Apple its neither ground breaking, stylish or going to shake up the market!!!  From personal experience having moved from rack mounted Xserves to Linux on the cloud there is no difference for the end user and am a few £ better off each month.

Cheers
Gordon



On 13 Dec 2010, at 16:57, Deco Rior wrote:

> My money is on cloud... like Amazon :-)
>
>
> On Dec 13, 2010, at 9:54 AM, List Subscriptions wrote:
>
>> I'm leaning towards the same prediction, (i.e. outside endorsed vendor). My money is on Active Storage.
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2010, at 9:21 AM, Jim Van Heule wrote:
>>
>>> I predict a 3rd party Apple endorsed XServe replacement will be announced in the 1st quarter 2011. I'll go even further and say that it will be offered on the online Apple Store.
>>
>> Regards,
>> ---
>> Tech Support • [hidden email]http://webcentrix.net
>> WebCentrix, Inc. • Web Hosting/Co-Location/Dedicated Servers  • Kerio Connect/Control Reseller
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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> Deco Rior
> [hidden email]
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> software to power your tennis facility
>
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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Ke Carlton-3
From my perspective, the best thing about Xserves was the stepping
stone they provided towards linux.

Slowly but surely I used ARD less and less, finding terminal and ssh
both more productive and eventually... more comfortable.

That said, I've always focused on the web server side of things...

Ke

On 13 December 2010 17:14, Gordon McLean <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From personal experience having moved from rack mounted Xserves to Linux on the cloud there is no difference for the end user and am a few £ better off each month.
>
> Cheers
> Gordon
>
>
>
> On 13 Dec 2010, at 16:57, Deco Rior wrote:
>
>> My money is on cloud... like Amazon :-)
>>
>>
>> On Dec 13, 2010, at 9:54 AM, List Subscriptions wrote:
>>
>>> I'm leaning towards the same prediction, (i.e. outside endorsed vendor). My money is on Active Storage.
>>>
>>> On Dec 12, 2010, at 9:21 AM, Jim Van Heule wrote:
>>>
>>>> I predict a 3rd party Apple endorsed XServe replacement will be announced in the 1st quarter 2011. I'll go even further and say that it will be offered on the online Apple Store.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> ---
>>> Tech Support • [hidden email]http://webcentrix.net
>>> WebCentrix, Inc. • Web Hosting/Co-Location/Dedicated Servers  • Kerio Connect/Control Reseller
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> Deco Rior
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> O:(720) 207-2806
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>>
>> TennisSource.Net
>> software to power your tennis facility
>>
>>
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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Gordon McLean
I completely agree, in fact I went and got a lesson or two from a Linux sys admin specifically on how to manage apache, where stuff was in the file system and how to run virtual hosts.  Thereafter I found that Linux and OSX via ssh were very similar.  Another thing I did was to select a well known version and stick to it ie Ubuntu on the basis I could run it locally on VMware as a desktop version.  I know Lasso does not support Ubuntu, but with a bit of fiddling about we got it to work and other than the well documented threads stuff its been fine for a year now.

IF I had a wish for LassoSoft it would be a fully installed AMI for LP9 and 8.5.6 running on both Ubuntu and CentOS.

Gordon
On 13 Dec 2010, at 17:32, Ke Carlton wrote:

> From my perspective, the best thing about Xserves was the stepping
> stone they provided towards linux.
>
> Slowly but surely I used ARD less and less, finding terminal and ssh
> both more productive and eventually... more comfortable.
>
> That said, I've always focused on the web server side of things...
>
> Ke
>
> On 13 December 2010 17:14, Gordon McLean <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> From personal experience having moved from rack mounted Xserves to Linux on the cloud there is no difference for the end user and am a few £ better off each month.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Gordon
>>
>>
>>
>> On 13 Dec 2010, at 16:57, Deco Rior wrote:
>>
>>> My money is on cloud... like Amazon :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 13, 2010, at 9:54 AM, List Subscriptions wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm leaning towards the same prediction, (i.e. outside endorsed vendor). My money is on Active Storage.
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 12, 2010, at 9:21 AM, Jim Van Heule wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I predict a 3rd party Apple endorsed XServe replacement will be announced in the 1st quarter 2011. I'll go even further and say that it will be offered on the online Apple Store.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> ---
>>>> Tech Support • [hidden email]http://webcentrix.net
>>>> WebCentrix, Inc. • Web Hosting/Co-Location/Dedicated Servers  • Kerio Connect/Control Reseller
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>> Deco Rior
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>> O:(720) 207-2806
>>> F:(303) 942-7417
>>>
>>> TennisSource.Net
>>> software to power your tennis facility
>>>
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>>
>> Cheers
>> Gordon McLean
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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by decorior

On 13 Dec 2010, at 16:57, Deco Rior wrote:

> My money is on cloud... like Amazon :-)

Well, in a year's* time you can either collect your winnings, or  
write off the bet.

* just because whatever "replacement" there is won't really be a  
replacement if it takes more than a year to materialise.


-- Clive

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Roddie Grant
In reply to this post by Sean Stephens-2
I'm coming a bit late to the party, but I've been mulling it over and
identified three wishes.

1. Lots of (UK-based) Lasso developers. As others have pointed out,
customers generally don't care what technology we use. What they *do* care
about is being able to find someone to take over in emergency. Three years
ago I had a heart attack so, for me, this is a scenario which came pretty
close to being reality. This issue, far more than anything else is what
keeps me awake at night. I genuinely worry that I am being irresponsible by
using Lasso. Because my projects tend to be long term, customers often
become friends, and it will be those friends and my wife who have to sort
out the mess if I go.

2. 100% backward compatibility for Lasso 9 or, failing that, 98%
compatibility and crystal clear instructions on what I have to do for the
remaining 2%. I just don't have the time or interest for trial and error. I
already run a Lasso 6 server and a Lasso 8 server, which is an inconvenience
and expense I could do without. I don't want to end up running 6, 8 and 9.

3. For Lasso 9, load and loads of example code. Fletcher's Tips of the Week
were brilliant, but they should look like a drop in the ocean compared to
the wonderful stuff produced for Lasso 9. I failed to get SOAP working some
time ago, and gave up because, with just the few example I was able to find,
I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. I never want to repeat that
experience.

So those are my three wishes Sean. Can you transform from a Frog into a
genie? :-)

Regards

Roddie Grant




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