[ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Chris Corwin
On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Ke Carlton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ecember 2010 14:13, Jason Huck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> +1 for this. I think it would drive trial as well, if all a
>> prospective customer had to do was download that image and open it in
>> VMWare or similar, and have a complete dev environment ready to go.
>
> -1 for this.
>
> Simply ensure Lasso is included in the default yum and rpm
> repositories and works off a simple: yum install lasso

both are good, imo.

some people, ke, will be totally not comfortable with what yum (or
apt-get) but would be willing to drop a VM into parallels and give it
a go.

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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Ari Denison
In reply to this post by Chris Wik-4
+1 Making it easier to install Lasso on CentOS by automating the repo creation, key, etc would be stellar.


On Dec 9, 2010, at 8:32 AM, Chris Wik wrote:

On 09.12.2010, at 15:18, Ke Carlton wrote:

> On 9 December 2010 14:13, Jason Huck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> +1 for this. I think it would drive trial as well, if all a
>> prospective customer had to do was download that image and open it in
>> VMWare or similar, and have a complete dev environment ready to go.
>
> -1 for this.
>
> Simply ensure Lasso is included in the default yum and rpm
> repositories and works off a simple: yum install lasso


My understanding of rpmforge, ATrpms, epel, etc, is that only free/open source software is accepted for inclusion.

So unless Lasso 9 becomes completely free/open source (doesn't seem likely right now, but who knows?), then it has no chance of being included.

That's not to say you can't have a one-line installer. For example, you could do

wget -q -O - http://www.lassosoft.com/centos_installer | sh

centos_installer would be a bash script that would set up the LassoSoft yum repo, import its GPG key, install Lasso, do any required configuration, etc. Super easy for the end user, just copy/paste one line, and could even be made to work with a variety of Linux flavours. IMHO this would be a better use of resources than providing pre-built VM images, which have a fairly limited target/application.

--
Chris Wik
Anu Internet Services Ltd


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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Steve Upton
In reply to this post by Ke Carlton-3
>
>On 9 December 2010 14:32, Chris Wik <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Super easy for the end user, just copy/paste one line, and could even be made to work with a variety of Linux flavours. IMHO this would be a better use of resources than providing pre-built VM images, which have a fairly limited target/application.

I respectfully disagree. It sounds like a response from an experienced Linux installer / user.

I, like many in the Lasso community, am well versed in Mac OS X server and Lasso 8.x installer & admin tools. The jump to Linux / Lasso 9 is daunting and, frankly, sounds like a HUGE time sink.

While the VMware-compatible idea is great (and not what I had considered originally) I was talking about Amazon server cloud stuff (or something like it). If I could get an expertly installed flavor of Linux with  expertly installed Lasso 9 it would be worth $$$ to me.

And while there are lots of flavors of linux, there's always an 80/20 rule to be applied (if not better)... Also, those who really care which flavor of linux they're running are the types to build their own servers anyway.

But for me, an easy-to-deploy image would be golden. In other words, if the new LassoSoft doesn't do it, there'd be money in someone else putting it together and maintaining it. I'D pay for it.

Regards,

Steve Upton


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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Jolle Carlestam-3
10 dec 2010 kl. 14:41 skrev "Steve Upton" <[hidden email]>:

> I respectfully disagree. It sounds like a response from an experienced Linux installer / user.

Chris is indeed a very experienced Linux user and as such usually (always) has advice worth listening to.
>
> I, like many in the Lasso community, am well versed in Mac OS X server and Lasso 8.x installer & admin tools. The jump to Linux / Lasso 9 is daunting and, frankly, sounds like a HUGE time sink.

If you know the OS X environment and nothing about Linux then stay in OS X. Getting a Linux server environment up and running in a secure and efficient way is nothing you should attempt if you don't know what you're doing. Regardless if you use Lasso or not. 8 or 9 doesn't matter. Don't go Linux unless you haver the proper skill set.

But, if you do know Linux then Chris suggested one line install seems like a very good idea. For the rest of the community, stay in OS X. Lasso 9 will work just the same.

HDB
Jolle

Typed on a mobile device. That explains all typos and errors in grammar. It has nothing to do with me being Swedish.
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

decorior

On Dec 10, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Jolle Carlestam wrote:

> If you know the OS X environment and nothing about Linux then stay in OS X.

Days are numbered :-(

Deco Rior
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Jolle Carlestam-3

11 dec 2010 kl. 08:27 skrev "Deco Rior" <[hidden email]>:

> n Dec 10, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Jolle Carlestam wrote:
>
>> If you know the OS X environment and nothing about Linux then stay in OS X.
>
> Days are numbered :-(

So true. But that's unrelated to Lasso. Linux/Lasso 9 IS daunting but that's all Linux. If you're looking for alternatives to OS X then Linux is your best choice. Regardless if you then plan on using PHP, Ruby, Python or Lasso (8 or 9) you HAVE to know Linux.

Once you have your secure Linux environment setup getting Lasso 9 up and running should be a nonissue. Especially if we can use Chris suggested one liner.


HDB
Jolle

Typed on a mobile device. That explains all typos and errors in grammar. It has nothing to do with me being Swedish.


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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

decorior
:-) we already use linux boxes

But, I really appreciate the elegance of OS X server and the administration, etc. Plus the monitoring is great. Just getting all the same stuff on a linux box seems so much more painful.

One of the most underrated Apple products IMHO



On Dec 10, 2010, at 2:41 PM, Jolle Carlestam wrote:

>
> 11 dec 2010 kl. 08:27 skrev "Deco Rior" <[hidden email]>:
>
>> n Dec 10, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Jolle Carlestam wrote:
>>
>>> If you know the OS X environment and nothing about Linux then stay in OS X.
>>
>> Days are numbered :-(
>
> So true. But that's unrelated to Lasso. Linux/Lasso 9 IS daunting but that's all Linux. If you're looking for alternatives to OS X then Linux is your best choice. Regardless if you then plan on using PHP, Ruby, Python or Lasso (8 or 9) you HAVE to know Linux.
>
> Once you have your secure Linux environment setup getting Lasso 9 up and running should be a nonissue. Especially if we can use Chris suggested one liner.
>
>
> HDB
> Jolle
>
> Typed on a mobile device. That explains all typos and errors in grammar. It has nothing to do with me being Swedish.
>
>
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

Kevin Bice
In reply to this post by decorior
Yes. After running under OS X Server environment since 10.2.x, I am faced with the reality that it will be CentOS or such going forward. Not that it is all bad, but the simplicity of OS X Server made administering 4+ boxes a lot easier. No more 1u boxes is a killer if you colocate too. I do believe that I will be looking at some sort of cloud environment for my business, and I hope that this will make the transition somewhat less painful.

The good news seems to be that Lasso will be viable going forward. I had been thinking that all of my Lasso projects would have to be moved to PHP. I know that 8.5.x still works fine, but I feared that at some point that it would not be usable without using an older OS ad problematic to do so.

Still, all of the above makes one realize that you need to keep your options open and not have all of your eggs in one basket.
.................................
Kevin Bice
512-879-1653
http://fmpweb.com
.................................
Web Development and Design



On Dec 10, 2010, at 3:27 PM, Deco Rior wrote:

>
> On Dec 10, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Jolle Carlestam wrote:
>
>> If you know the OS X environment and nothing about Linux then stay in OS X.
>
> Days are numbered :-(
>
> Deco Rior
> [hidden email]
>
> O:(720) 207-2806
> F:(303) 942-7417
>
> TennisSource.Net
> software to power your tennis facility
>
>
> This electronic mail message is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This message, together with any attachment, may contain confidential and privileged information.   Any unauthorized review, use, printing, copying, retention, disclosure or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email message to the sender and delete all copies of this message. Thank you
>
>
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

bfr00
FWIW it is not apparent where this reality comes from. You've experienced something completely satisfactory but that was entirely too simple and pleasant and rewarding - and therefore unbearable?

Bruce Robertson

On Dec 10, 2010, at 2:54 PM, Kevin Bice wrote:

> Yes. After running under OS X Server environment since 10.2.x, I am faced with the reality that it will be CentOS or such going forward. Not that it is all bad, but the simplicity of OS X Server made administering 4+ boxes a lot easier. No more 1u boxes is a killer if you colocate too. I do believe that I will be looking at some sort of cloud environment for my business, and I hope that this will make the transition somewhat less painful.
>
> The good news seems to be that Lasso will be viable going forward. I had been thinking that all of my Lasso projects would have to be moved to PHP. I know that 8.5.x still works fine, but I feared that at some point that it would not be usable without using an older OS ad problematic to do so.
>
> Still, all of the above makes one realize that you need to keep your options open and not have all of your eggs in one basket.
> ................................
> Kevin Bice
> 512-879-1653
> http://fmpweb.com
> ................................
> Web Development and Design
>
>
>
> On Dec 10, 2010, at 3:27 PM, Deco Rior wrote:
>
>>
>> On Dec 10, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Jolle Carlestam wrote:
>>
>>> If you know the OS X environment and nothing about Linux then stay in OS X.
>>
>> Days are numbered :-(
>>
>> Deco Rior
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> O:(720) 207-2806
>> F:(303) 942-7417
>>
>> TennisSource.Net
>> software to power your tennis facility
>>
>>
>> This electronic mail message is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This message, together with any attachment, may contain confidential and privileged information.   Any unauthorized review, use, printing, copying, retention, disclosure or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email message to the sender and delete all copies of this message. Thank you
>>
>>
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

John May-2
+1

FUD is a powerful thing.  Don't make your business decisions based on it.

        - John


On 12/10/10 6:05 PM, Bruce Robertson wrote:

> FWIW it is not apparent where this reality comes from. You've
> experienced something completely satisfactory but that was entirely
> too simple and pleasant and rewarding - and therefore unbearable?
>
> Bruce Robertson
>
> On Dec 10, 2010, at 2:54 PM, Kevin Bice wrote:
>
>> Yes. After running under OS X Server environment since 10.2.x, I am
>> faced with the reality that it will be CentOS or such going
>> forward. Not that it is all bad, but the simplicity of OS X Server
>> made administering 4+ boxes a lot easier. No more 1u boxes is a
>> killer if you colocate too. I do believe that I will be looking at
>> some sort of cloud environment for my business, and I hope that
>> this will make the transition somewhat less painful.
>>
>> The good news seems to be that Lasso will be viable going forward.
>> I had been thinking that all of my Lasso projects would have to be
>> moved to PHP. I know that 8.5.x still works fine, but I feared that
>> at some point that it would not be usable without using an older OS
>> ad problematic to do so.
>>
>> Still, all of the above makes one realize that you need to keep
>> your options open and not have all of your eggs in one basket.
>> ................................ Kevin Bice 512-879-1653
>> http://fmpweb.com ................................ Web Development
>> and Design
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 10, 2010, at 3:27 PM, Deco Rior wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 10, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Jolle Carlestam wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you know the OS X environment and nothing about Linux then
>>>> stay in OS X.
>>>
>>> Days are numbered :-(
>>>
>>> Deco Rior [hidden email]
>>>
>>> O:(720) 207-2806 F:(303) 942-7417
>>>
>>> TennisSource.Net software to power your tennis facility
>>>


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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

fletcher sandbeck-2
In reply to this post by bfr00
On Dec 10, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Bruce Robertson wrote:

> FWIW it is not apparent where this reality comes from. You've experienced something completely satisfactory but that was entirely too simple and pleasant and rewarding - and therefore unbearable?

The cancellation of the XServe makes it difficult to imagine I'll have too many Mac OS X web servers in a couple years.  Maybe Apple will license Mac OS X Server on different hardware, but it seems as likely that it will morph into more of a home server platform.  Not that "Server" is necessary for Lasso, but I'm simply not going to go back to putting desktop machines on shelves at the colocation facility at this point.

Lasso 9 was designed to be able to reside in the "cloud" and to integrate much better with control panels and automatic configuration tools.  Hopefully, the work can now be completed to make all that come to fruition.

[fletcher]



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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

decorior
I always felt it would happen...

It was impossible to compete with similar featured hardware at half the price. IT departments I worked with did not want to or failed to acknowledge the hidden cost of installing and maintaining UNIX and Windows based servers. I am sure that it is fairly easy to configure a linux box with the same base level software, but I wonder.

I would be interested to see how long it takes a UNIX administrator to configure personal websites, permissions, ical server, blogs, monitoring systems for SMART drives, rollover IP, backup, etc. all from a single disk image.

At $200+ an hour it does not take long to makeup the $1,500 delta maybe?

Does anyone know of an out-of-the box install of a UNIX server that does this? If so then, I think they have a captive market for people coming off OS X server.

However, it would not surprise me for Apple to offer their own Cloud services built around OS X server making a few of us....very happy :-)

Deco


On Dec 11, 2010, at 6:30 PM, Fletcher Sandbeck wrote:

> On Dec 10, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Bruce Robertson wrote:
>
>> FWIW it is not apparent where this reality comes from. You've experienced something completely satisfactory but that was entirely too simple and pleasant and rewarding - and therefore unbearable?
>
> The cancellation of the XServe makes it difficult to imagine I'll have too many Mac OS X web servers in a couple years.  Maybe Apple will license Mac OS X Server on different hardware, but it seems as likely that it will morph into more of a home server platform.  Not that "Server" is necessary for Lasso, but I'm simply not going to go back to putting desktop machines on shelves at the colocation facility at this point.
>
> Lasso 9 was designed to be able to reside in the "cloud" and to integrate much better with control panels and automatic configuration tools.  Hopefully, the work can now be completed to make all that come to fruition.
>
> [fletcher]
>
>
>
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Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation

bfr00
In reply to this post by fletcher sandbeck-2
One statement does not follow from the other. We know positively that the XServe is EOL. We do not know anything about its replacement.

I think we are likely to find out some time in the near future that such a conclusion is premature. There are rumors to that effect now. I have no special knowledge or connections. I just have a tendency to believe that Steve is many steps ahead in the game but keeps his mouth shut.

In general - even moreso these days - betting that Apple is shortsighted in an important technology market isn't a winning bet.

I believe the statement was something to the effect that the XServe didn't sell in large enough quantities. An easily reached conclusion is that he will ignore the market it served. A much more believable conclusion (for me) is that they will say - oh - well then let's build something that - once again - hammers a market.

However, Apple's well known secrecy does make it difficult to plan.

Bruce Robertson

On Dec 11, 2010, at 5:30 PM, Fletcher Sandbeck wrote:

> On Dec 10, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Bruce Robertson wrote:
>
>> FWIW it is not apparent where this reality comes from. You've experienced something completely satisfactory but that was entirely too simple and pleasant and rewarding - and therefore unbearable?
>
> The cancellation of the XServe makes it difficult to imagine I'll have too many Mac OS X web servers in a couple years.  Maybe Apple will license Mac OS X Server on different hardware, but it seems as likely that it will morph into more of a home server platform.  Not that "Server" is necessary for Lasso, but I'm simply not going to go back to putting desktop machines on shelves at the colocation facility at this point.
>
> Lasso 9 was designed to be able to reside in the "cloud" and to integrate much better with control panels and automatic configuration tools.  Hopefully, the work can now be completed to make all that come to fruition.
>
> [fletcher]
>
>
>
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Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by decorior

On 12 Dec 2010, at 01:58, Deco Rior wrote:

> However, it would not surprise me for Apple to offer their own  
> Cloud services built around OS X server making a few of us....very  
> happy :-)

I think that may satisfy people doing web and mail, but it's not  
going to cut it for file serving, print serving and home folders/
accounts.

I'd like to think that Apple would licence the server OS to other  
hardware vendors, but past experience suggests that's not going to  
happen.


-- Clive

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Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Clive Bruton
In reply to this post by bfr00

On 12 Dec 2010, at 02:33, Bruce Robertson wrote:

> We do not know anything about its replacement.

The "note" from Apple explicitly says there will be no replacement.

        http://images.apple.com/xserve/pdf/L422277A_Xserve_Guide.pdf

If there were some hardware replacement in the works they wouldn't be  
suggesting the use of minis and MacPros.


-- Clive

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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

bfr00
Disagree strongly.

If there were some *announceable* hardware replacement in the works...

But time will tell.

On Dec 11, 2010, at 6:52 PM, Clive Bruton wrote:

>
> On 12 Dec 2010, at 02:33, Bruce Robertson wrote:
>
>> We do not know anything about its replacement.
>
> The "note" from Apple explicitly says there will be no replacement.
>
> http://images.apple.com/xserve/pdf/L422277A_Xserve_Guide.pdf
>
> If there were some hardware replacement in the works they wouldn't be suggesting the use of minis and MacPros.
>
>
> -- Clive
>
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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Clive Bruton

On 12 Dec 2010, at 03:53, Bruce Robertson wrote:

> Disagree strongly.

You disagree that Apple has said that there is no replacement?

>
> If there were some *announceable* hardware replacement in the works...

If there were some hardware replacement they wouldn't be telling  
everyone that the server line is effectively dead, they'd just  
introduce it and then stop the Xserve, even if that were a year away  
- if they had that plan. Why deliberately cause all the grief amongst  
the user base?


-- Clive

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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Trevor Borgmeier
I think you're right.  If Apple has a replacement idea, I'm guessing it
involves cloud computing at their new data center over server hardware.

-Trevor



on 12/12/10 8:10 AM Clive Bruton wrote:

>
> On 12 Dec 2010, at 03:53, Bruce Robertson wrote:
>
>> Disagree strongly.
>
> You disagree that Apple has said that there is no replacement?
>
>>
>> If there were some *announceable* hardware replacement in the works...
>
> If there were some hardware replacement they wouldn't be telling
> everyone that the server line is effectively dead, they'd just
> introduce it and then stop the Xserve, even if that were a year away -
> if they had that plan. Why deliberately cause all the grief amongst
> the user base?
>
>
> -- Clive
>
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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

John May-2
In reply to this post by Clive Bruton
On 12/11/10 9:47 PM, Clive Bruton wrote:

>
> On 12 Dec 2010, at 01:58, Deco Rior wrote:
>
>> However, it would not surprise me for Apple to offer their own Cloud
>> services built around OS X server making a few of us....very happy :-)
>
> I think that may satisfy people doing web and mail, but it's not going
> to cut it for file serving, print serving and home folders/accounts.
>
> I'd like to think that Apple would licence the server OS to other
> hardware vendors, but past experience suggests that's not going to happen.
>
>
> -- Clive
>


Agreed.  Just because "cloud computing" is the hip new term doesn't mean
it makes sense in all cases.  For a company using OS X Server at one
location, there's no good reason to move it off into the cloud.

I think Apple's new datacenter is going to be for consumer market stuff
- more MobileMe services, iTunes streaming, etc.  Despite being a huge
datacenter, I could not see it having the horsepower, nor Apple the
expertise, to offer any serious enterprise servers in the cloud.

Needless to say, all of this is FUD either way.  Much better to wait
until the fat lady sings in January or February than make your business
plans off of guesses.

As for us, if we gotta use Mac Pros to keep hosting on OS X, we'll do
it.  I keep saying if you can give me a 32 core Mac Pro (and this weill
*easily* happen very soon), I'll throw it in the racks, as that's close
enough to the Xserve density.  IMHO, OS X is the most elegant OS out
there, Linux included, and I'm not going to roll over and succumb to
mediocrity ;)

        - John

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Re: Xserve (was Re: [ANN] Truth and Reconciliation)

Jim Van Heule-3
I predict a 3rd party Apple endorsed XServe replacement will be announced in the 1st quarter 2011. I'll go even further and say that it will be offered on the online Apple Store.

Jim Van Heule

On Dec 12, 2010, at 10:13 AM, John May wrote:

> On 12/11/10 9:47 PM, Clive Bruton wrote:
>>
>> On 12 Dec 2010, at 01:58, Deco Rior wrote:
>>
>>> However, it would not surprise me for Apple to offer their own Cloud
>>> services built around OS X server making a few of us....very happy :-)
>>
>> I think that may satisfy people doing web and mail, but it's not going
>> to cut it for file serving, print serving and home folders/accounts.
>>
>> I'd like to think that Apple would licence the server OS to other
>> hardware vendors, but past experience suggests that's not going to happen.
>>
>>
>> -- Clive
>>
>
>
> Agreed.  Just because "cloud computing" is the hip new term doesn't mean it makes sense in all cases.  For a company using OS X Server at one location, there's no good reason to move it off into the cloud.
>
> I think Apple's new datacenter is going to be for consumer market stuff - more MobileMe services, iTunes streaming, etc.  Despite being a huge datacenter, I could not see it having the horsepower, nor Apple the expertise, to offer any serious enterprise servers in the cloud.
>
> Needless to say, all of this is FUD either way.  Much better to wait until the fat lady sings in January or February than make your business plans off of guesses.
>
> As for us, if we gotta use Mac Pros to keep hosting on OS X, we'll do it.  I keep saying if you can give me a 32 core Mac Pro (and this weill *easily* happen very soon), I'll throw it in the racks, as that's close enough to the Xserve density.  IMHO, OS X is the most elegant OS out there, Linux included, and I'm not going to roll over and succumb to mediocrity ;)
>
> - John
>
> --
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> John May : President                   http://www.pointinspace.com/
> Point In Space Internet Solutions             [hidden email]
>
>             Twitter: http://twitter.com/pointinspace/
>           Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/PointInSpace/
>
>        Professional FileMaker Pro, MySQL, PHP & Lasso Hosting
>          on shared, virtual and hardware dedicated servers
>
>
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